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what convention is this 3 club bid

#1 User is offline   cencio 

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Posted 2021-April-23, 01:35

Explain what is the possible distribution of thid hand
1 3 pass 3
3 double pass 4
pass 5 pass pass
pass
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#2 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-April-23, 03:06

Your auction is difficult to read.
I've used the hand diagram available here.



Agreements would help, is 3C a strong or intermediate jump overcall?
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#3 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2021-April-23, 03:41

Probably 3 was meant as a constructive bid. If it was preemptive, the 3 bidder would probably have passed in second round.

I don't see any reason to think it is a convention. Probably a natural overcall. The double probably shows extra strength, and the 5 bid shows longer clubs (at least 7).

But you will have to ask the pair what their agreement is.
Can't have a baby if you do it contraclockwise! --- Jlall
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#4 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2021-April-23, 04:08

View Posthelene_t, on 2021-April-23, 03:41, said:

Probably 3 was meant as a constructive bid. If it was preemptive, the 3 bidder would probably have passed in second round.

I don't see any reason to think it is a convention. Probably a natural overcall. The double probably shows extra strength, and the 5 bid shows longer clubs (at least 7).

But you will have to ask the pair what their agreement is.

I play 3 as a strong minimum or intermediate hand as in The Overcall Structure, but may X initially with the intermediate hand and length depending on side-suit strength. The later X would show some useful and a singleton in the Red suits; probably
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#5 User is offline   cencio 

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Posted 2021-April-23, 11:01

the hand

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#6 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2021-April-23, 15:08

It is a precised Michael Cue Bid
1M-2M is other M and C
1M-2NT is both m
1M-3C is other M and D

Seems N understood properly (min hand, prefers D to H)

Over the « strength » X, N proposed his long C suit and S aggressively raised

Of course, all of that should have been explained to you
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#7 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2021-April-23, 16:15

This convention is called Ghestem. 3c shows 5-5 in the two highest unbid suits. Fairly popular in the Netherlands.
Can't have a baby if you do it contraclockwise! --- Jlall
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#8 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2021-April-23, 19:04

View Posthelene_t, on 2021-April-23, 16:15, said:

This convention is called Ghestem. 3c shows 5-5 in the two highest unbid suits. Fairly popular in the Netherlands.

But if an established pair play it against me without alerting it, they get booted and blacklisted. That is simply unethical.
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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#9 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2021-April-24, 03:15

View PostZelandakh, on 2021-April-23, 19:04, said:

But if an established pair play it against me without alerting it, they get booted and blacklisted. That is simply unethical.


Tough crowd :P
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#10 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-April-24, 03:34

Ghestem is the number one cause of director headaches in the Netherlands, to the point that I have heard directors say they always rule against the pair that had a Ghestem misunderstanding, no matter the situation. In fact, in one tournament there was a specific Ghestem clause added to the list of tournament rules, warning us that they would be merciless. So use it at your own peril. Misunderstandings like this are very common.
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#11 User is offline   Gerardo 

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Posted 2021-April-24, 06:48

David Burn about Ghestem

#12 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-April-24, 10:19

View PostZelandakh, on 2021-April-23, 19:04, said:

But if an established pair play it against me without alerting it, they get booted and blacklisted. That is simply unethical.


The consequences of a failure to alert depend upon regulations, but that sounds a bit drastic :)
EW would have a hard time convincing the Director they were damaged here, too.
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#13 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-April-25, 03:02

View PostGerardo, on 2021-April-24, 06:48, said:

I recently had the pleasure to read the hilarious "Een goede speler is niet eerlijk" by Joost Prinsen (in Dutch only, as far as I know) which includes an interview with Pierre Ghestem, who said he is not familiar with the convention (source, in Dutch). So I think David Burn is being a bit hard on Pierre Ghestem here - or Ghestem managed to pull a fast one on Prinsen. That being said, the convention itself has little going for it
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#14 User is offline   Douglas43 

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Posted 2021-April-25, 03:19

This topic came up in a previous post Lol Lol Lol! - BBO Discussion Forums (bridgebase.com)

It helps show the importance of being awake when partner bids 3. As posted there, I have played a version called Questem for years, quite happily. Most conventions have this drawback, Stayman doesn't work well if you forget what 2 means...
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#15 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2021-April-25, 09:53

Of course. But only some conventions don't come up often enough to be instinctive, or "sound" too much like natural to flag the reaction. One of these leads to "oops, forgot" once, maybe twice, then you're comfortable; both is scary. Most conventions, of course, are common enough, or "obvious" enough, that they aren't forgotten (like Stayman).

I tell people they will forget all of these, once, while they're learning, and (usually) never again:
  • support doubles
  • Drury
  • Lebensohl/reverses or doubles of weak 2s
  • XYZ/NT

And examples of things that sound natural:
  • 1-1; 1-2 (again, XYZ)
  • maximal overcall double

Examples of both:
  • 2NT-3NT where 3 is a transfer
  • (1)-3 Ghestem
  • Kickback (esp. in auctions that start 1-1 or the like)

But notice that only one of them is in the opponents' auction, where mistakes aren't automatic "Lose 10"s, and in fact could work out in your favour.

That's why Ghestem in particular is looked at so aggressively when it's "conveniently" forgotten.

Not just that, mind you - I have one opponent that wants to play Suction against our weak NT. Fine, I don't care, play what you like, when it's legal. But in the times he has convinced his partner to play this, inevitably the overcall was "the next suit up, or the other two" *but was actually the suit bid because partner forgot again*.
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#16 User is offline   Douglas43 

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Posted 2021-April-25, 11:49

One difference between Questem and Ghestem is that 3 always promises clubs (plus the highest unbid suit), unless opener bid 1 (in which case nobody is likely to mistake it for a natural bid. South's hand is a 2 bid at Questem. 2NT is minors. 3 is clubs and hearts.
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#17 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2021-April-25, 21:52

View Postpescetom, on 2021-April-24, 10:19, said:

The consequences of a failure to alert depend upon regulations, but that sounds a bit drastic :)
EW would have a hard time convincing the Director they were damaged here, too.

I am talking about BBO, so no TD and self-alerts. If someone is making the call as described with a regular partner and not self-alerting it, they are unethical and are not welcome at my table. The great thing about BBO is that there is not a shortage of potential opponents and I do not need to play against those that I find obnoxious or undesirable.
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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#18 User is offline   Douglas43 

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Posted 2021-April-26, 01:10

View PostZelandakh, on 2021-April-25, 21:52, said:

I am talking about BBO, so no TD and self-alerts. If someone is making the call as described with a regular partner and not self-alerting it, they are unethical and are not welcome at my table. The great thing about BBO is that there is not a shortage of potential opponents and I do not need to play against those that I find obnoxious or undesirable.


Quite agree. In a self-alerting context, that is outrageous.
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#19 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-April-26, 02:42

View PostDouglas43, on 2021-April-26, 01:10, said:

Quite agree. In a self-alerting context, that is outrageous.

I agree too.
I was thinking about a f2f partner-alerting situation (somehow I just couldn't envision anyone playing Ghestem on BBO, don't ask me why).
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#20 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2021-April-26, 15:29

Q: Do many people in the Netherlands play Ghestem?
A: No, but many people have partners who do.
Can't have a baby if you do it contraclockwise! --- Jlall
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