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Another do you bid hand

#1 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2021-May-14, 11:56



MPs. NS are playing a weak NT. What do you do?
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#2 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-May-14, 12:02

double
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#3 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-May-14, 12:52

double
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#4 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-May-14, 13:13

Pass, but it’s close. Make it A10xx AJxx QJx xx and I double.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#5 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2021-May-14, 14:42

The full deal and what happened:



+50 and a 25% board for EW, three pairs found a heart partscore and several others got more by taking a NS spade contract down more. East thought that West should have doubled. I thought East (my friend) should have bid 1 when it came back round to her, but she thought the hand was too weak. I thought of double on the West hand which works great if partner can bid a major, but might suck badly if they bid clubs. Maybe the chances of finding a major fit on the EW cards after a double are better than playing in a hideous club contract going two or more down.
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#6 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-May-14, 14:56

Firstly, it’s usually unwise to assess what one ‘should’ do based on the actual layout of a hand

Secondly, when both partners take slightly conservative or slightly aggressive actions, one usually gets a poor board, but that’s just the price of playing. Here, I see double as close, but slightly inferior to pass, and I see east’s pass as close but slightly inferior to 1H (but I’d pass at imps).

Thirdly, I appreciate that you appear to generally play in a weak notrump environment, but in many places you’d have some protection since one would need to be very aggressive to compete over a strong 1N

Fourthly, especially in a weak 1N method, I think passing 1D as North is unduly conservative: I’d respond 1S all the time. Partly to preempt east should east be about to bid, but more to get to 1N or 2S.
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#7 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2021-May-14, 15:31

I happily bid 2 as both Majors
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#8 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2021-May-14, 15:56

View Postmikeh, on 2021-May-14, 14:56, said:

Firstly, it’s usually unwise to assess what one ‘should’ do based on the actual layout of a hand


I wasn't. At MPs I would very likely take a punt at 1 in the passout seat just looking at the West hand in isolation. I've had enough sessions of declaring three times in 24 boards to let the opponents play in a suit at the one level when I hold a five card major and modest values.
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#9 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2021-May-14, 16:02

Hmm, here I feel the opposite of mike (rare occurrence, I agree with the vast majority of his opinions), close on both sides but would vote the other way. I would double with west because it's all white at matchpoints. It's not totally clear, but if there's a time to overbid a bit it's when all-white, and it's generally safer to compete earlier in the auction rather than later. If you can make something fantastic, if you can't generally you have be *both* down 2 *and* doubled before it's bad, as the opps can usually make something. It's pretty unlucky if doubling leads to you being down 2 and the opps were destined to be only +90 in 1nt. And if the opps are down it's hard to score well for only +50/+100, you need to get them 3 if undoubled.

As East, I think it's a pass because short in spades (might give opps a chance to find a better scoring spade partial), length in diamonds (opps may be in wrong contract, if partner short in diamonds decreases his HCP expectation since no double), and I expect partner to compete aggressively white.
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#10 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2021-May-14, 16:04

View Postmikeh, on 2021-May-14, 14:56, said:

Fourthly, especially in a weak 1N method, I think passing 1D as North is unduly conservative: I’d respond 1S all the time. Partly to preempt east should east be about to bid, but more to get to 1N or 2S.


I don't think I would, I tend to want at least a five count when responding in a four suit at the one level. Not saying I am right, but that is how I've always played. I've tended to always play systems which have two bids to show the game forcing openers and strong Acol hands, so there is far less chance partner could open in a suit at the one level with 20-21 HCP. I can see the merit in responding with the North hand if your only strong opening is 2, where 1-suit opening could be a hand where many Benji-Acol club players would open 2.
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#11 User is offline   eagles123 

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Posted 2021-May-14, 16:34

View PostAL78, on 2021-May-14, 16:04, said:

I don't think I would, I tend to want at least a five count when responding in a four suit at the one level. Not saying I am right, but that is how I've always played. I've tended to always play systems which have two bids to show the game forcing openers and strong Acol hands, so there is far less chance partner could open in a suit at the one level with 20-21 HCP. I can see the merit in responding with the North hand if your only strong opening is 2, where 1-suit opening could be a hand where many Benji-Acol club players would open 2.



With respect I think Mike's description of North's pass over 1D as "Unduly conservative" is pretty generous. I doubt any good player would pass here unless needing a swing.
"definitely that's what I like to play when I'm playing standard - I want to be able to bid diamonds because bidding good suits is important in bridge" - Meckstroth's opinion on weak 2 diamond
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#12 User is online   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-May-14, 17:22

4/4 in the majors - double for me.
Acol is a HUM
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#13 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-May-14, 18:03

View PostAL78, on 2021-May-14, 16:04, said:

I don't think I would, I tend to want at least a five count when responding in a four suit at the one level. Not saying I am right, but that is how I've always played. I've tended to always play systems which have two bids to show the game forcing openers and strong Acol hands, so there is far less chance partner could open in a suit at the one level with 20-21 HCP. I can see the merit in responding with the North hand if your only strong opening is 2, where 1-suit opening could be a hand where many Benji-Acol club players would open 2.

Do you routinely open 4 card majors? If so, then I can see passing 1D (although I wouldn’t), but otherwise you risk playing in a 4-2 or even (depending on what you open with 4=4=3=2) a 3=2 diamond fit instead of 1N or a 4=4 spade fit. While sometimes 1S gets you too high, that has to be against the odds playing weak notrump, since he can raise to 2S with hands that, in a strong notrump method, he has to bid 3S.
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#14 User is online   sfi 

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Posted 2021-May-14, 20:23

View PostAL78, on 2021-May-14, 11:56, said:



MPs. NS are playing a weak NT. What do you do?

Double is a terrible bid. You have to do it anyway.

Especially nil vul at matchpoints, part scores are a race to -50.
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#15 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2021-May-15, 01:40

View Postmikeh, on 2021-May-14, 18:03, said:

Do you routinely open 4 card majors? If so, then I can see passing 1D (although I wouldn’t), but otherwise you risk playing in a 4-2 or even (depending on what you open with 4=4=3=2) a 3=2 diamond fit instead of 1N or a 4=4 spade fit. While sometimes 1S gets you too high, that has to be against the odds playing weak notrump, since he can raise to 2S with hands that, in a strong notrump method, he has to bid 3S.


Yes, with most partners I have played with I play Benji-Acol, 4CM, most of those have opened the major with 4M-4m non touching. With two current partners I play 5CM with, we play 1 is at least four, 1 could be two.
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#16 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2021-May-15, 09:15

For me, I'd argue that K942 J3 would be enough to get me to pass, but boss suit and shape and 4 all-in-suit is enough for me to call. Partner will almost always bid 1NT (and my hand's not awful (likely entry), and NT scores better than D, and that nasty 6-card trump fit question) or a spade raise (which I will happily pass) or 2 (which I will also happily pass; if they find 2 fine, my style they might make 4). The bad results are 2NT (which might be no worse than 1D, frankly) and 2, but they're rare.
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#17 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2021-May-15, 09:52

View PostStephen Tu, on 2021-May-14, 16:02, said:

Hmm, here I feel the opposite of mike (rare occurrence, I agree with the vast majority of his opinions), close on both sides but would vote the other way. I would double with west because it's all white at matchpoints. It's not totally clear, but if there's a time to overbid a bit it's when all-white, and it's generally safer to compete earlier in the auction rather than later. If you can make something fantastic, if you can't generally you have be *both* down 2 *and* doubled before it's bad, as the opps can usually make something. It's pretty unlucky if doubling leads to you being down 2 and the opps were destined to be only +90 in 1nt. And if the opps are down it's hard to score well for only +50/+100, you need to get them 3 if undoubled.

As East, I think it's a pass because short in spades (might give opps a chance to find a better scoring spade partial), length in diamonds (opps may be in wrong contract, if partner short in diamonds decreases his HCP expectation since no double), and I expect partner to compete aggressively white.

You are in (good? questionable?) company, Stephen: mine 😉

I’d X at W because 2 good cases (I hit partner with a major) vs. 1 bad (partner bids 2C and even when he does, he would have 5 or some values, with a poor (32)44 there are merits to try 1M), at green on top of that...

I’d pass as E because this sg spade is frightening. Looks like I would be waking up the sleeping waters. I might be overthinking this a bit, but someone once balanced against me when I had a strong minor + S 2-suiter that I had chosen to open at the 1-level, and within 2 minutes I was tabling 11 tricks at 4S.

But yeah, N should strive to find a bid.
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#18 User is offline   Douglas43 

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Posted 2021-May-16, 02:09

View Postapollo1201, on 2021-May-15, 09:52, said:

You are in (good? questionable?) company, Stephen: mine 😉

I'd X at W because 2 good cases (I hit partner with a major) vs. 1 bad (partner bids 2C and even when he does, he would have 5 or some values, with a poor (32)44 there are merits to try 1M), at green on top of that...

I'd pass as E because this sg spade is frightening. Looks like I would be waking up the sleeping waters. I might be overthinking this a bit, but someone once balanced against me when I had a strong minor + S 2-suiter that I had chosen to open at the 1-level, and within 2 minutes I was tabling 11 tricks at 4S.

But yeah, N should strive to find a bid.


I'm struggling here because I'd prefer 1 as South (good 4cm, happy to rebid 2NT inv over 1NT or 2NT GF over a two-level response, and if it just makes it's +80 instead of +70), I'd double 1 as West, and I'd respond 1 as North. But I do agree with East's pass - on the basis of "where are the Spades"?
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#19 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2021-May-16, 21:23

View PostAL78, on 2021-May-15, 01:40, said:

Yes, with most partners I have played with I play Benji-Acol, 4CM, most of those have opened the major with 4M-4m non touching. With two current partners I play 5CM with, we play 1 is at least four, 1 could be two.

One thing that shows itself quite strongly in the BBO Acol Club - most of the Brits open 1M with 4M4m(32) and 15-19hcp while most of the Anzacs open the same hand 1m. I would estimate that 90% of the players there would pass a 1 opening with the North hand and that very few would try a Double of 1 with West.
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#20 User is offline   Douglas43 

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Posted 2021-May-17, 05:14

View PostGilithin, on 2021-May-16, 21:23, said:

One thing that shows itself quite strongly in the BBO Acol Club - most of the Brits open 1M with 4M4m(32) and 15-19hcp while most of the Anzacs open the same hand 1m. I would estimate that 90% of the players there would pass a 1 opening with the North hand and that very few would try a Double of 1 with West.


Your are probably right about the UK style on that. Some players always bid the major. I'm a pessimist and before choosing on 4M4m32 think whether I'd want the suit led. On this hand I'd be happy with a lead in either suit, so yes I'd try and get the Spades in.

On the Isle of Man, I reckon most players would double 1D as West and respond 1S as North. We have a lot of lively auctions Posted Image
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