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So sweet - NZ teams

#1 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-May-19, 05:29

We played matches 5&6 tonight, here's one board of interest.



2 shows 5 spades and 5 of "another suit", less than 10 hcp.

How do you proceed from here?
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#2 User is online   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-May-19, 05:40

Are you playing Lebensohl on this auction?
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#3 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-May-19, 05:50

View PostDavidKok, on 2021-May-19, 05:40, said:

Are you playing Lebensohl on this auction?


And if not why not :) You need some sort of method here, but we can comfortably be making a slam opposite a hand that will still show the weak version (xx, xxxxx, KJxx, Ax and many other hands are likely to be sufficient).
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#4 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-May-19, 05:51

View PostDavidKok, on 2021-May-19, 05:40, said:

Are you playing Lebensohl on this auction?

Yes
Well, good question. Since this is a weak2 type hand, I'd say yes.
These are treatments I don't face in North America, so a lot of it is undiscussed.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#5 User is online   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-May-19, 06:08

So, pretending to be an expert bean counter for a moment, we have 23 HCP and partner ostensibly shows 8+ for the positive bid. Furthermore, they have picked our long suit. I think we should start to plan an auction to get to 6NT from our side (or 7 something if partner has two aces) to protect the black kings. Partner is unlikely to ever believe we have such a big hand, but we can force partner to disclose something about their cards.

In the traditional Lebensohl 3 here is GF, although some pairs play it as INV. Either way 3 should show a control and confirm hearts (which we will correct later). Partner is likely to sign off with 4, and then we can bid 4NT keycards. Depending on partnership agreements there is a risk partner will bid some conventional 3NT over 3 - what would this mean in your partnership?

Perhaps a true mastermind would bid 4 instead of 3, showing a long diamond hand. This way the K would count as a key card and we can explore 7. Alas (or fortunately), that is not the approach I prefer.
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#6 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-May-19, 06:29

If we bid 3S, partner will cue or bid 3nt with a spade stopper.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#7 User is online   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-May-19, 06:37

That's rough, partner may well have a hand like Ax, T9xxx, KJx, xxx where 6NT in our hand can make on the two (marked?) finesses, but over 3-3NT any slam goes down on a club lead. Our failure to bid 4/4NT on the first round excludes both minors, so 4NT now is probably just keycards. I guess that's the best way forward.
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#8 User is online   mycroft 

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Posted 2021-May-19, 09:00

I would assume with OP that 4 is KC for hearts, so 4NT is - what? Having said that, what's the chance it would go 4-4NT?

There's an argument for blasting 6NT and seeing if they can find the successful defence.
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#9 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-May-19, 11:20

View Postmycroft, on 2021-May-19, 09:00, said:

I would assume with OP that 4 is KC for hearts, so 4NT is - what? Having said that, what's the chance it would go 4-4NT?

There's an argument for blasting 6NT and seeing if they can find the successful defence.

4nt is a spade cue
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#10 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-May-19, 11:21


Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#11 User is online   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-May-19, 11:41

Back, back! The 3 bid was a mistake because the chance of 3NT was too high. There's no fixing it now.
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#12 User is offline   Douglas43 

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Posted 2021-May-19, 15:52

Not convinced by the original takeout double; I'd bid 3NT over 2S.
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#13 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-May-19, 18:26

Without Lebensohl, I give opener a 7-count and that leaves on average 5 hcp for the other two hands. On hands like this where I hold secondary honors in what appears to be both of opponent's suits I rarely find the perfect holdings in partner's hand to make a great deal of tricks.

I would simply raise to 4H.


With Lebensohl, I would bid 3S, as there is no other bid to show strength that makes sense to me, but even then it might get dicey if a potential slam is wrong sided.
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#14 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-May-19, 18:35

View Postjillybean, on 2021-May-19, 11:21, said:




I think the only prudent action now is 4H. I don't think there is an intelligent way to find out if partner has club help, and without club help we have wrong-sided every reasonable contract option.
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#15 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2021-May-19, 19:22

View PostDavidKok, on 2021-May-19, 06:08, said:

In the traditional Lebensohl 3 here is GF, although some pairs play it as INV.

Um, how exactly can 3 be GF as a passed hand? (And even if you weren't a passed hand, 3 isn't GF in any form of lebensohl I've ever heard of..)

View PostDouglas43, on 2021-May-19, 15:52, said:

Not convinced by the original takeout double; I'd bid 3NT over 2S.

I would treat that as a long minor (or some source of 9 tricks with a stopper) rather than showing a strong balanced hand.
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#16 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-May-19, 20:07

View PostDavidKok, on 2021-May-19, 11:41, said:

Back, back! The 3 bid was a mistake because the chance of 3NT was too high. There's no fixing it now.

You bid 4H if scared of 3N being wrong-sided, but the club Ace rates to be onside, given our hand and placing a spade honour in partnerís hand, plus openerís minor may be diamonds and, finally, partner may have a useful club holding, since he sure doesnít have much in hearts.
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#17 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-May-19, 22:43



I thought partner must have Ace for his bid, he's not doing it on Qxx
Lead = A
Two pairs out of the 12 found the slam. B-)

I will post more about this game when I get time but I will say we won both matches last night.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#18 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-May-19, 22:48

View PostDouglas43, on 2021-May-19, 15:52, said:

Not convinced by the original takeout double; I'd bid 3NT over 2S.

I do not like this option at all. 3nt is a trap and gives up on finding anything better.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#19 User is online   mycroft 

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Posted 2021-May-19, 23:39

View Postsmerriman, on 2021-May-19, 19:22, said:

Um, how exactly can 3 be GF as a passed hand? (And even if you weren't a passed hand, 3 isn't GF in any form of lebensohl I've ever heard of..)
Easy. Doubles in direct seat of weak 2s are sound, usually 15+ or so counting shape.

Oh, you don't play that? Well, then, your auctions are harder, as you have to guess if partner has a "real" hand or not each time. But you get in more often. But it goes p-weak 2-X-XX (penalty) more often, too.

Cyberyeti and I have very different ideas on action over preempts. His style works for him; my style works for me. It looks like your style is closer to his than mine. We would both admit that our styles cost sometimes. Preempts Work™.
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#20 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2021-May-20, 00:23

View Postmycroft, on 2021-May-19, 23:39, said:

Easy. Doubles in direct seat of weak 2s are sound, usually 15+ or so counting shape.

Perhaps. But even with a different range of doubles, when one of cue / leb-cue can show a GF with 4 hearts, and you have the option to bid 4 with 5 hearts, giving up heart invites still seems odd to me.

Either way, even if it's a good idea, I still wouldn't call it 'traditional'.
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