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Invitational+ relays

#1 User is online   helene_t 

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Posted 2021-May-23, 16:06

In for example Precision, I thought that using
1-2
as the GF relay leaves less space than I'd like, while using
1-1
as the GF relay makes it awkward to bid the semipositive hands with 4+ hearts.

So I thought that maybe we could let the relay be invitational+, and only a second relay establishes a GF.

We could then make the responses to the first relay be 2-under transfers to allow relayer to show a semipositive flexible hand by accepting the transfer. For example
1-1
..1: 4+ clubs, no 4-card major
....1NT: GF
....2,2,2,2: nonforcing
..1NT: 6+ diamonds, no 4-card major
....2: GF
..2: 4 hearts
..2: 4 spades

The the other responses to 1 could take care of those semipositive hands that can't safely relay, for example
1-?
..1: 5+ hearts, forcing
..1NT: 5 spades, nonforcing

(The reason why we need a bid for 5+ hearts is that a semipositive with six hearts can't safely relay, as if it goes
1-1
2
now 2 is a relay so there's no way to bid a nonforcing 2).

Does this make some sense? I thought it could be reasonably playable if you can live with not having the first relay-break available for asking bids, but maybe it becomes a mess in contested auctions.
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#2 User is online   awm 

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Posted 2021-May-23, 16:20

View Posthelene_t, on 2021-May-23, 16:06, said:

In for example Precision, I thought that using
1-2
as the GF relay leaves less space than I'd like, while using
1-1
as the GF relay makes it awkward to bid the semipositive hands with 4+ hearts.

So I thought that maybe we could let the relay be invitational+, and only a second relay establishes a GF.

We could then make the responses to the first relay be 2-under transfers to allow relayer to show a semipositive flexible hand by accepting the transfer. For example
1-1
..1: 4+ clubs, no 4-card major
....1NT: GF
....2,2,2,2: nonforcing
..1NT: 6+ diamonds, no 4-card major
....2: GF
..2: 4 hearts
..2: 4 spades

The the other responses to 1 could take care of those semipositive hands that can't safely relay, for example
1-?
..1: 5+ hearts, forcing
..1NT: 5 spades, nonforcing

(The reason why we need a bid for 5+ hearts is that a semipositive with six hearts can't safely relay, as if it goes
1-1
2
now 2 is a relay so there's no way to bid a nonforcing 2).

Does this make some sense? I thought it could be reasonably playable if you can live with not having the first relay-break available for asking bids, but maybe it becomes a mess in contested auctions.


It seems like there are no balanced hands in your 1 opening? If this is the case then the scheme you gave seems pretty good. Otherwise it seems easier to use natural rebids like:

1-1:
... 1 = 4
... 1NT = 3145 or balanced without a four-card major
... 2 = 5+ and 4+
... 2 = 6+ no other four card suit
... 2 = 4 balanced or 13(45)
... 2+ = 4 unbalanced

The idea is to use 2 as a relay after opener's 2/2 rebids to optimise space, so you need 1-2 as weak.
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
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#3 User is online   helene_t 

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Posted 2021-May-23, 17:07

Yeah that's right, sorry I should have mentioned that. I assumed that 1 is unbalanced, "natural" including (41)35.

With your scheme, does the 1 relay promise hearts if less than GF?
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#4 User is online   awm 

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Posted 2021-May-23, 21:42

My scheme is the somewhat standard “hearts or GF” which allows for other responses natural.
Adam W. Meyerson
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#5 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2021-May-30, 07:44

View Posthelene_t, on 2021-May-23, 16:06, said:

So I thought that maybe we could let the relay be invitational+, and only a second relay establishes a GF.

This is what Zelandakh does.

View Posthelene_t, on 2021-May-23, 16:06, said:

We could then make the responses to the first relay be 2-under transfers to allow relayer to show a semipositive flexible hand by accepting the transfer. For example
1-1
..1: 4+ clubs, no 4-card major
....1NT: GF
....2,2,2,2: nonforcing
..1NT: 6+ diamonds, no 4-card major
....2: GF
..2: 4 hearts
..2: 4 spades

The the other responses to 1 could take care of those semipositive hands that can't safely relay, for example
1-?
..1: 5+ hearts, forcing
..1NT: 5 spades, nonforcing

It seems that finding 4-4 major fits can be a problem when Responder has less than invitational values. This is not a problem in Zelandakh's system, where (if I've got the details right)

1-?:

1 = INV+ relay
1 = < INV, 4+ S, may have longer H
...1N = 4+ H
...(...)
1N = < INV, 4-5 H, < 4 S, NF

(But maybe finding the 5-3 heart fit with, say, 12 hcp, 4351 opposite 9 hcp, 2524 is? I don't know.)

Forrester-Gold played an interesting 2/1 system some years ago where (as you can see from their convention card,

1-?:

1 = "Relay no 5M"
1 = "5+"
1N = "5+"
2 = "FG or balanced FG"
2 = " wk or FG"
2 = " wk or FG"
2 = "FG 4+"
3 = "INV"
3 = "Mixed"
3M/4 = "SPL".

Presumably they responded 1 on most (all?) positive hands with a 4c, but not 5c, M. I have no idea what they did over that, but obviously a scheme with 2-under transfers could work, e.g.

1-1; ?:

2x-2(x!=) = 2-under transfer
...2x-1 = INV+ relay
......2x = only non-GF bid, NF
......[2x+1]+ = GF
...(...)
(...)

Or, if you want to keep 2 as NAT NF over 1-1; 2, maybe something closer to what benlessard does, in his chapi8 system.
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#6 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2021-July-02, 04:09

Posting this before overthinking (and not posting) it:

P = normal / <range 0> BAL?
1 = <range>, x+y 2-suiter, y longer if x<y / <range 1> BAL / ?
...1 = (positive?) relay
......1 = <range>, C+O 2-suiter, O longer / ?
.........1 = (positive?) relay
............1N = <subrange>, C+D 2-suiter, D longer / ? (=> 2 = INV+ relay)
............2 = <subrange>, C+H 2-suiter, H longer / ? (=> 2 = INV+ relay)
............2 = <subrange>, C+S 2-suiter, S longer / ? (=> 2 = INV+ relay)
............(...)
.........(...)
......1 = <range>, D+M 2-suiter, M longer
.........1N = (positive?) relay
............2 = <subrange>, D+H 2-suiter, H longer / ? (=> 2 = INV+ relay)
............2 = <subrange>, D+S 2-suiter, S longer / ? (=> 2 = INV+ relay)
............(...)
.........(...)
......1N = <range 1> BAL
......2 = <subrange>, H+S 2-suiter, S longer / ? (=> 2 = INV+ relay)
......(...)
...(...)
1 = <range>, 1-suiter / <range 3> BAL? / ?
...1 = (positive?) relay
......1 = C 1-suiter / ? (=> 1N = INV+ relay)
......1N = D 1-suiter / <range 3> BAL? / ? (=> 2 = INV+ relay)
......2 = H 1-suiter / ? (=> 2 = INV+ relay)
......2 = S 1-suiter / ? (=> 2 = INV+ relay)
......(...)
...(...)
1 = <range>, C+O 2-suiter, C longer / ?
...1 = (positive?) relay
......<subrange>, 1N = C+D 2-suiter, C longer / ? (=> 2 = INV+ relay)
......<subrange>, 2 = C+H 2-suiter, C longer / ? (=> 2 = INV+ relay)
......<subrange>, 2 = D+S 2-suiter, C longer / ? (=> 2 = INV+ relay)
......(...)
...(...)
1 = <range>, D+M 2-suiter, D longer / ?
...1N = (positive?) relay
......2 = <subrange>, D+H 2-suiter, D longer / ? (=> 2 = INV+ relay)
......2 = <subrange>, D+S 2-suiter, D longer / ? (=> 2 = INV+ relay)
......(...)
...(...)
1N = <range 2> BAL
2 = <subrange>, H+S 2-suiter, H longer / ? (=> 2 = INV+ relay)
(...)

Not sure where to put 3-suiters, 5-5 and 6-6 hands yet. Ideas?

Not sure about the ranges either, but maybe**

<range> = "10+" (meets the rule of 19, say)
<subrange> = "10-15 or 19+"*
<range 0>: empty (but my current preference is actually to pass with 11-13 BAL in 1st/2nd seat)
<range 1> = 11-13 hcp (could be 17-19 hcp in 1st/2nd seat if 11-13 BAL is in P)
<range 2> = 14-16 hcp
<range 3> = 17-19 hcp (could be 20-22 hcp in 1st/2nd seat if 17-19 BAL is in 1-1; 1N)

?

* Then e.g.

1-1; [2m-3]-[2m-2]; 2M
1-1; 2M
[2m-3]-[2m-2]; 2M

could all be NAT with "16-18"
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#7 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2021-July-02, 04:50

View Posthelene_t, on 2021-May-23, 17:07, said:

Yeah that's right, sorry I should have mentioned that. I assumed that 1 is unbalanced, "natural" including (41)35.

With your scheme, does the 1 relay promise hearts if less than GF?

If it helps I play 1-1 as GF/GI with the follow-ups below

1NT 3+(5+4+3x)
--2 4+ 2 under transfers completes with 3
--2 4+ 2 under transfers completes with 3
--2 4+
--2 5+
--2NT 3343 Min
--3 44
--3 54
--3 45
--3 55 short
--3NT 3343 non-Min
--4 55 short
--4 5+ SI

2 (444x)
--2 Short suit? etc
-- ... 2-suited stronger hands

2 6+ not 6430
--2 Shape/Strength?
--2 5+2+ Min
--2NT 5+2+ Min
-- ...

2 46+ Min not 6430
2 46+ Min not 6430
2NT 5 Min
3 46 Min
3 semi-balanced w/o 3M
3 46+ non-Min not 6430
3 46+ non-Min not 6430
3NT 5 non-Min

Subsequent relays further define the shortage/strength

For non-GF hands 1
1 4+//both or any 3+&
1NT 4/5
2 6+
2 5+
2 6+
2 6+
2NT 5+ Inv
3 5+ preemptive or max. with shape
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