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Wrong in so many ways.

#1 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-May-30, 14:43

This is the worst auction I've had for a long time, and I have had my fair share of bad auctions.
Walk me through how you would have bid this.


Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

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#2 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-May-30, 15:25

I would start with 1, but I bet some would start with 2.
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#3 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2021-May-30, 15:28

2 to 1 opps have A, so I would open 1. if partner cannot bid 1nt (forcing/semi-forcing) then we probably have not missed game but we could have...
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#4 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-May-30, 16:18

That was the first mistake.
1 is going to kill this thread, I will force a 2 opening.



2 - No Ace or King
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

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#5 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-May-30, 16:45

I am a 1S opener as well and my reason is to avoid this trap; however, if I had been drinking and forced to play as a substitute I might as well continue to show my ďpointsĒ now with 2nt.
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#6 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-May-30, 16:51

No ace or king doesn't rule out a slam (Qx, xxx, Qxxxxx, xx for example). I'm going to show my suits, starting with 2.
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#7 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2021-May-30, 18:02

Cast my vote in with the 1 openers.

I hate opening 2 on any hand, and with a stiff heart I'm not worried about 1 getting passed out.

Plus, while we're very control rich, the trick taking potential of this hand on it's own is nothing amazing.
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#8 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-May-30, 20:42

It will be no surprise that I join the 1S brigade. This isnít even in the top ten of strong hands I open at the one-level. I donít think Iíve ever missed a good game and, strange though it may seem, we tend to do better on slam bidding on those hands than do people who open 2C. I think itís because, when we have small or, especially, grand slams available, partner gets to participate in the auction far more informatively than after we preempt the auction via 2C.

Having miscounted my hand...maybe I thought I held AKQxx K AKQx Axx...I bid 2S. This is NOT a 2N rebid, especially after partner canít hold the heart Ace. We can still get to notrump if need be.

Of course, itís easy to see disaster lurking.

Iím screwed over 2N by partner. I am absolutely not bidding 3D on this terrible hand...I think I pass 2N, but then heíll have x QJxx QJxx QJ10x (but with that hand he should bid 3N) and 3N is cold. But if I bid 3N, heíll have x Jxx xxxx xxxxx and we get killed

Iím screwed over 3C...Iíd have to pass and, again, maybe miss game

Iím even screwed over 3D, though Iíd bid 5D just in case.

And 3H endplays me into a probably hopeless 3N.

Btw, one of the ways to improve your bidding is to think about rebids. Think about them before you open.

If you open 2C, and partner bids 2H, youíre in deep trouble.

Meanwhile, if he would have responded 2D, the odds are extremely high that he wonít pass 1S (no good player need 6 hcp to respond to a 1 suit opening), and heíll never pass with spade support and a hand that makes 4S a good contract, nor a hand that makes 3N or 5D good.
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#9 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-May-30, 21:24

Thought I should make clear I was being facetious when I rebid 2nt - showing points seemed to be the theme of the bidding.😎
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#10 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-May-31, 01:21



The hole is getting bigger.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#11 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-May-31, 03:14

View Postjillybean, on 2021-May-31, 01:21, said:



The hole is getting bigger.


What is 3 ? is one of 3/2N better than the other or just different ? And how many clubs does it show ?
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#12 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-May-31, 03:43

I'm a bit late, but here's another vote for 1.

Given the 2, I like 2 on the second round. All alternatives are worse.

Our hand is rapidly getting weaker and weaker on the auction. We have little trick-taking potential, no spade fit, partner does not have the ace of hearts so that king is looking mighty shifty. I'm assuming 3 is natural and shows at least 5 (what is partner supposed to do with 2=4=3=4? I guess if all bids are natural 2NT is an option, though I hate bidding NT with the weak hand on this auction).
I think 4 is not making, and 5 only has chances if partner has some nice shape and maybe QJxxxx of clubs. Might 3NT have chances opposite something like xx, QJx, xxx, QJxxx? Actually, if the club king is third we have no communication and the contract is doomed. We could try 3, allowing partner to bid 3NT with heart values or 3 (false preference) without (which I will pass). But if partner has real clubs, maybe 1=3=3=6 or the like, we are never getting out below 5 which might be hopeless. Also if partner has diamond support they may well raise (on only 3, perhaps) and then we are in deep trouble. Also even the somewhat-maximum hand I constructed isn't making 3NT.
The more I think about it, the less I like my odds. Pass for me. At least we get to play it and save poor partner from that fate.

It is possible that partner has all or most of the missing queens and jacks and a small slam may even be on, but I have no way to find out (unless 3 comes with a range description).
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#13 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-May-31, 04:10

View PostDavidKok, on 2021-May-31, 03:43, said:

I'm a bit late, but here's another vote for 1.

Given the 2, I like 2 on the second round. All alternatives are worse.

Our hand is rapidly getting weaker and weaker on the auction. We have little trick-taking potential, no spade fit, partner does not have the ace of hearts so that king is looking mighty shifty. I'm assuming 3 is natural and shows at least 5 (what is partner supposed to do with 2=4=3=4? I guess if all bids are natural 2NT is an option, though I hate bidding NT with the weak hand on this auction).
I think 4 is not making, and 5 only has chances if partner has some nice shape and maybe QJxxxx of clubs. Might 3NT have chances opposite something like xx, QJx, xxx, QJxxx? Actually, if the club king is third we have no communication and the contract is doomed. We could try 3, allowing partner to bid 3NT with heart values or 3 (false preference) without (which I will pass). But if partner has real clubs, maybe 1=3=3=6 or the like, we are never getting out below 5 which might be hopeless. Also if partner has diamond support they may well raise (on only 3, perhaps) and then we are in deep trouble. Also even the somewhat-maximum hand I constructed isn't making 3NT.
The more I think about it, the less I like my odds. Pass for me. At least we get to play it and save poor partner from that fate.

It is possible that partner has all or most of the missing queens and jacks and a small slam may even be on, but I have no way to find out (unless 3 comes with a range description).


Your sample hand 3N has decent chances, even better if 9 is present), 5 has good chances.

This hand exemplifies my issues with the 2 played in this way, does partner have x, xxx, xxx, xxxxxx or Qx, QJx, QJx, QJ10xx ? and is why I would like a second negative if played in this style.
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#14 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2021-May-31, 06:29

5431/4441 and 5440 shape do not bid well after a 2 opening, especially if longer suits are minor. this is what you are seeing now when responder is weak. is a 2 opening still a gf whatever garbage responder has? that is why there are so many comments about opening 1 on this hand, and why it is right action.

big thing to realise is when you have so many high card points, the other hands will have so many fewer points and usually a weak hand. if I had a dollar for every time I opened 2 and found partner with <6hcp I would have quite a few dollars extra in my bank. lol.

most players say that any 22+ hand should be opened 2 but that is not right as you have found out. strange thing also is that hands play better with similar number of points each opposite each other opposed to one big hand opposite a weak hand. with a big hand you have to play away from it on many times during play so you are leading away from strength.
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#15 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-May-31, 07:26

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-May-31, 03:14, said:

What is 3 ? is one of 3/2N better than the other or just different ? And how many clubs does it show ?

3 is a suit and given the initial 2bust, enough values to invite game.
2N is similarly limited by the 2 bid, I'd have a tough time constructing a hand that would want to bid 2N after 2 2 2

View PostLBengtsson, on 2021-May-31, 06:29, said:

Is a 2 opening still a gf whatever garbage responder has?

After the 2 response, responder can pass any bid.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#16 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2021-May-31, 07:42

View PostLBengtsson, on 2021-May-31, 06:29, said:

5431/4441 and 5440 shape do not bid well after a 2 opening, especially if longer suits are minor. this is what you are seeing now when responder is weak. is a 2 opening still a gf whatever garbage responder has? that is why there are so many comments about opening 1 on this hand, and why it is right action.

big thing to realise is when you have so many high card points, the other hands will have so many fewer points and usually a weak hand. if I had a dollar for every time I opened 2 and found partner with <6hcp I would have quite a few dollars extra in my bank. lol.

most players say that any 22+ hand should be opened 2 but that is not right as you have found out. strange thing also is that hands play better with similar number of points each opposite each other opposed to one big hand opposite a weak hand. with a big hand you have to play away from it on many times during play so you are leading away from strength.


I use 2-2X-3Y as Str 4441s with Y being the bid below the singleton so this works well. I don't mind 5440 especially if 5 is a minor. I also concluded that a Multi-2 & Multi-2 helps to define the longer suit with the 54 hands so I run into less of an issue with these.
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#17 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2021-May-31, 07:56

View Postjillybean, on 2021-May-31, 01:21, said:



When I don't know what to do, my normal style is to find the cheapest sensible bid and give us a little space to try and find the right spot. In this case that theory is not really needed since 3 looks pretty clear.

After 3 I can continue with 4 and over 3 I would probably bid 3NT, although this reflects the fact that I don't really have a 2 opener. If partner raises diamonds, I can try and go back to clubs.


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#18 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-May-31, 08:22

View Postpaulg, on 2021-May-31, 07:56, said:

If partner raises diamonds, I can try and go back to clubs.

Make sure to try 2*-2*; 2-3; 3-4; 4!, it's probably the best spot.
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#19 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-May-31, 08:31

As long as partner's 3C bid is a suit then we are playing this in clubs or nt. The weak hand's suit should be trump if at all possible. I have support. I see no reason to confuse the issue so I plan to support clubs. There is not enough information to bid game. Can partner have x, Jxx, Qxx, Jxxxxx? Or something more makeable with x, Qxx, xxx, QJxxxx.

The bigger question is: what else could responder do with: x, xxx, xxx, Jxxxxx over 2S? Would that hand still bid 2H initially? And there seems to be no second negative so we are guessing at this point. My instincts tell me to pass - but I think I shouldn't be so negative so I will give it one try with 4C, hoping that isn't forcing.
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#20 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-May-31, 08:47

View PostDavidKok, on 2021-May-31, 08:22, said:

Make sure to try 2*-2*; 2-3; 3-4; 4!, it's probably the best spot.


If partner has 4 diamonds, it's a non issue.
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