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4 level interference, how do you ... (2)

#1 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-June-05, 14:26

This time your partner's at it.


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#2 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-June-05, 14:29

Scoring?
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#3 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-June-05, 14:32

View Postjillybean, on 2021-June-05, 14:29, said:

Scoring?

MPs
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#4 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-June-05, 15:00

Pass

I think that is what I should do but if I ask for keycards and hear ONE, I can signoff in 5S, with 2 I bid 6S (wrong!)
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#5 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-June-05, 15:19

I pass and score (an admittedly rare) one for playing Namyats.
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#6 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-June-05, 15:31

View Postpescetom, on 2021-June-05, 15:19, said:

I pass and score (an admittedly rare) one for playing Namyats.


Namyats doesn't help you tell the difference between a stiff club and 3 small, 8 spades to the ace and a stiff or void club is plenty
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#7 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-June-05, 15:44

4 has removed all of our room to cue bid. If you cue 5 will partner bid 6 with a first round control, or with a second round control?

Hold on, I cue 5 showing both red suit controls.

5 can't be to play, surely.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#8 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-June-05, 15:48

Completely dependent on who I'm playing with and our agreements and the discipline involved. With my normal partner, now deceased, this even vulnerability 4S will be made on a hand that has no worse than 7 1/2 winners, usually 8. Missing AK, AK, that gets in down to at worst AQJxxxxx and the club K. It could be A. So the worst case is for me is 50-50 so bid 4N and if he has 2, I bid the grand, if 1, then settle for an more iffy 6.

There is a lot to be said for disciplined bidding.
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#9 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-June-05, 15:52

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-June-05, 15:48, said:

There is a lot to be said for disciplined bidding.

As one of the converted, I agree.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#10 User is online   nige1 

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Posted 2021-June-05, 15:56

CyberYeti 'This time your partner's at it.'
++++++++++++++++++++
Hands transposed to make partner dealer. I rank
1. 5 = ASK (Sharples convention: the suit below the suit about which you are worried).
2. 4N = RKC Partner might have 2 aces (or none).
3. 6. Punt.
4. Pass.

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#11 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-June-05, 16:06

I'll give you a clue, partner has AJ1098xxx, Q, (x, Qxx) which bid gives you the best chance of finding out which he has ?

I've not heard of the Sharples convention, but how does it work ? do you make different bids with first/second round controls ?
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#12 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2021-June-05, 17:35

I would bid 5C, asking for control. I thought this is fairly standard?

Now partner can sign off with no control, cue with first round control, bid slam with a singleton or bid 5NT with a guarded king.
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#13 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-June-05, 17:45

View Postjillybean, on 2021-June-05, 15:44, said:

4 has removed all of our room to cue bid. If you cue 5 will partner bid 6 with a first round control, or with a second round control?

Hold on, I cue 5 showing both red suit controls.

5 can't be to play, surely.

I understand the logic behind 5H showing both red suits, since one can bid 5C with clubs, intending to bid 5H over 5D to show that control, while keeping grand open. However, that’s the sort of call one makes in the post-mortem rather than at the table, unless one has previously discussed this.

Also, note that you are creating a roadmap for the defenders.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#14 User is online   nige1 

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Posted 2021-June-05, 21:10

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-June-05, 16:06, said:

I'll give you a clue, partner has AJ1098xxx, Q, (x, Qxx) which bid gives you the best chance of finding out which he has ? I've not heard of the Sharples convention, but how does it work ? do you make different bids with first/second round controls ?
IMO, the Sharples brothers were world-best bidders,
  • in theory: They invented and refined many conventions that withstand the test of time and
  • in practice: They retired unbeaten from the Bridge-Magazine bidding-competition. They enjoyed domestic success with fellow Acol gurus like Marx, Amesbury and co.


After partner opens 4M, a new suit asks for control in the next suit. Simple reply scheme:

  • Without control, you sign off in the trump suit
  • With 2nd round control you cue-bid it. I suppose, here, you might improvise 5NT.
  • With 1st round control, you cue-bid if possible. Or you can simply bid slam.

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#15 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-June-05, 21:42

View Postsfi, on 2021-June-05, 17:35, said:

I would bid 5C, asking for control. I thought this is fairly standard?

Now partner can sign off with no control, cue with first round control, bid slam with a singleton or bid 5NT with a guarded king.

Is this standard after a preempt?
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#16 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2021-June-05, 21:48

View Postjillybean, on 2021-June-05, 21:42, said:

Is this standard after a preempt?

I thought it was - I've been playing it for decades with people in multiple countries. But nobody else has mentioned it, so maybe not.

You give up the chance of playing game in your own suit after partner has preempted in game, but the hands where that is right are rare compared to the times you need to ask about a specific suit.

It looks like the same thing as what Nigel is proposing, except you bid the suit you want to ask about.
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#17 User is online   apollo1201 

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Posted 2021-June-06, 01:42

View Postsfi, on 2021-June-05, 21:48, said:

I thought it was - I've been playing it for decades with people in multiple countries. But nobody else has mentioned it, so maybe not.

You give up the chance of playing game in your own suit after partner has preempted in game, but the hands where that is right are rare compared to the times you need to ask about a specific suit.

It looks like the same thing as what Nigel is proposing, except you bid the suit you want to ask about.

Late in the thread because of time zones (and a late wakeup, I confess), but interrogative at the 5 level (or a stressful 4S above 4H, please dont pass!) is quite common here and I said ok 5C wtp when I saw the hand (except you’ll get a C lead and maybe a bottom if partner rejects) and had to read a few replies before someone mentionned this.

Over the interro, 1st step is no control (so that you never bid above 5M), 2nd step is 2nd round (K or single) and 3rd is 1st round (A or void). A second relay can distinguish between shortness or honor control.

With the given hand it is then easy to place the contract, remembering partner shouldn’t have two aces. QJ 8th or 9th with CA and AQ or AJ 8th if CK.

And too bad if they have A 8th and CA and we have 7 by ruffing out H for discarding the C or D losers.

But keycarding to address this rare hand will leave you clueless when partner bids 1 ace, and opening leader had a natural CA or CK lead nevertheless.

As a side, I heard someone once having a special BW for preeempts but can’t remember what it was. Does anyone play a special thing?
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#18 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-June-06, 02:12

OK, I'm glad this prompted some debate, we have no agreed methods here, I had AJ1098xx, Q, x, Qxx, partner bid 5 to try to indicate a club issue, I bid 5 as my hand was crap and I didn't have a club control so had little to think about. The defence didn't get the inference, 5+2 for most of the matchpoints. Several people were in 6-1 as this prompted the opening leader to lead his unsupported ace.

Sharples will get you 5= (maybe unless you psyche a club control and throw the Q under the A).

Prize for 5N= in theory
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#19 User is offline   Joe_Old 

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Posted 2021-June-06, 10:05

View Postapollo1201, on 2021-June-06, 01:42, said:

As a side, I heard someone once having a special BW for preeempts but can’t remember what it was. Does anyone play a special thing?


I have played a BW where only the AKQ of Opener's suit is described, ignoring any outside cards:

first step: no A or K
second step: one A or K
third step: A and K without Q
fourth step: A and K with Q

It is used only where Responder has the side suits covered and is trying to judge slam in Opener's suit. It is initiated by Responder bidding Clubs at the cheapest level, (except Diamonds after a Club pre empt), leaving room for Responder to investigate interest in a Major suit.

This post has been edited by Joe_Old: 2021-June-06, 10:13

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#20 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2021-June-06, 14:07

View Postapollo1201, on 2021-June-06, 01:42, said:

As a side, I heard someone once having a special BW for preeempts but can't remember what it was. Does anyone play a special thing?

Pre-emptive Roman Keycard Blackwood is fairly popular and I think it was in one of Bergen's books.

Over a 3/3/3 opening bid, then 4 asks and the responses are:

4 - zero key cards
4 - one key card without the queen
4 - one key card with the queen
4NT - two key cards without the queen
5 - two key cards with the queen

Over a 3 opening, then 4 is used.
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