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3154 Awkward

#21 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2021-June-11, 11:53

View Postjillybean, on 2021-June-11, 09:50, said:

1 1 3 3 3 - how does this work?


For me, if you have a spade stopper and want to suggest 3nt as a contract you just bid 3nt, as you should with the given hand. Therefore 3S denies a spade stopper, keeps 3nt in the picture, and caters to partner bidding long hearts holding a spade stopper also, since partner didn't really have a bid to show both earlier. So this might be something more like Jx x AKQxxx AKQx.

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#22 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2021-June-11, 12:03

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-June-11, 10:09, said:

Because 1-1-3N means something else to 90% of people including a much longer diamond suit and less HCP

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#23 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-June-11, 14:25

View Postkenberg, on 2021-June-11, 10:22, said:

The problem is that I don't know. Might it be taken to show a hand where the majors are AKx in hearts and a stiff spade?
Playing with a pick-up, and for that matter playing with a non-pick-up, I think it is best if bids show values in the bid suit unless there is some clear understanding to the contrary.So 3S shows spades. Very sensible.
But bidding 3NT over 3H must also be something in spades and a lack of enthusiasm for hearts, and that's what I have.
If 3S would have worked better I then say mean culpa and we go on to the next hand.
Not as dramatic as one of my favorite bridge stories:
After a bad result and an ongoing lecture from the male side of the table the female side promised to kill herself tomorrow but suggested that for now they go on to the next hand.

It is very sensible for bids to show values in the suit, unless agreed otherwise. I'm so conditioned to believing this bid asks for a stopper, shows a part stopper, that I would not use it in this sequence with a pickup, or non pickup. If you can play 3 here as showing, and partners hand is unsuitable for nt are you hoping for a minor slam?

I will pass on your bridge story to one of my long suffering bridge friends.

Here's the entire auction.


The actual hand did have a happy ending after North cashed the A and continued hearts.
We are meeting later to discuss the hands and I may suggest we remove the 4 card from the bidding box.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#24 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-June-11, 15:27

View Postjillybean, on 2021-June-11, 14:25, said:

It is very sensible for bids to show values in the suit, unless agreed otherwise. I'm so conditioned to believing this bid asks for a stopper, shows a part stopper, that I would not use it in this sequence with a pickup, or non pickup. If you can play 3 here as showing, and partners hand is unsuitable for nt are you hoping for a minor slam?

I will pass on your bridge story to one of my long suffering bridge friends.

Here's the entire auction.


The actual hand did have a happy ending after North cashed the A and continued hearts.
We are meeting later to discuss the hands and I may suggest we remove the 4 card from the bidding box.

You may also gently explain that exuberance isn’t found in the bidding box
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#25 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-June-11, 16:32

View Postjillybean, on 2021-June-11, 09:37, said:



South leads a spade and never gets back in. Needless to say my auction was nothing like this but started 1 1 4 Gerber

Welcome back Kenberg :)

Surely 4C over 1H is played by the vast major players as a splinter?

I did once play it as showing a hand with 4H and 6D very strong, with 1D 1H 4D as the same shape but a little weaker. I think that was in one of Hardy’s 2/1 books, but I think it a poor method...better than Gerber, I suppose...damning it with faint praise😃
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#26 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2021-June-11, 18:08

View Postjillybean, on 2021-June-11, 09:37, said:



South leads a spade and never gets back in. Needless to say my auction was nothing like this but started 1 1 4 Gerber

Welcome back Kenberg :)


Thanks, good to see you again.


Some people hate Gerber, I am not one of them, but perhaps it's a bad convention to play unless there is a little time to go over it. Actually that's true for most conventions.

My preference for Gerber:

4C is Gerber providing:

It is a jump to 4C made directly over a natural 1NT or directly over a natural 2NT.

The NT bid need not be an opening NT bid.
So 1D-1H-1NT-4C is Gerber.
So is 1C-1H-1NT-4C
And 1C-2NT-4C is Gerber.
But 1S-2NT-4C is not Gerber, at least not as long as we assume that 2NT is an artificial spade raise. Whatever 4C is in that auction, it is not Gerber.The 2NT was not natural, so 4C is not Gerber.

I m not at all claiming this is the best agreement, but it is simple.

Even here there should be one more remark. After a natural 1NT the opponents might come in at the 2 level. Then 4C is still Gerber because the 1NT was natural and the 4C was a jump.
If they interfere at the 3 level then 4C is not a jump, so it is not Gerber.
A jump to 4C directly after pard has bid a natural NT is Gerber.

A jump to 4C over a suit bid is never Gerber. As mentioned, in your auction surely most would take it as a splinter. But whatever it is, playing as I suggest it isn't Gerber.

If you play with Meckstroth I am sure he will have a better way. But I doubt he will have a simpler way.
Pard bids a natural NT, you jump to 4C, it's Gerber. Anything else it isn't Gerber.
Ken
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#27 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-June-11, 19:12

View Postmikeh, on 2021-June-11, 16:32, said:

Surely 4C over 1H is played by the vast major players as a splinter?

I did once play it as showing a hand with 4H and 6D very strong, with 1D 1H 4D as the same shape but a little weaker. I think that was in one of Hardy’s 2/1 books, but I think it a poor method...better than Gerber, I suppose...damning it with faint praise��

Perhaps, except here where everyone plays 4 as Gerber, or CRO.

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-June-11, 15:27, said:

You may also gently explain that exuberance isn’t found in the bidding box

Indeed!
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#28 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-June-12, 04:19

View Postmycroft, on 2021-June-11, 10:11, said:

I'm actually more interested in 1-1. 3 takes up a lot of room potentially needed to find the 5-3 spade fit, but I don't see anything else working.
If 3 establishes a game force then partner will most likely bid 3 or 3 on all hands without a clear direction, which keeps 4 in the picture. Opener has an easy 3 over either bid.
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