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Spades after 1H interference

#1 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-June-17, 09:59

Strong NT, 5-card major 2/1.
After opening 1/ and interference of 1, our players were taught to play that X by Responder is negative (Sputnik) showing 4=card spades whereas 1 is F1 with 5+card spades.



Opener's rebid over 1 is basically natural: 2 is a simple raise (3+card), 3 is an invitational raise.



Opener's rebid over X showing 4=card spades is less well defined. What do others feel 1, 2, 3 should promise here?

And what should a 2 cue mean in both situations?

I'm just hoping to better define this basic system here, not looking for alternatives at this moment. I realise for instance that there are good reasons for putting 4+ spades through X and playing 1 as artificial, but I have a large pool of intermediates playing this stuff and they don't want change, just clarity.
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#2 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2021-June-17, 11:14

You probably can find online better - as in "taught" - responses, but mine:

  • no better response, could very easily be 3 spades; if so, probably no heart stopper;
  • simple raise (4 card);
  • invitational raise

(note that since I play weak NT a lot, when I do, the "simple" raise is "15-17 in support of spades", and 1 could be "4 spades, but doesn't upgrade to 15 with only a 4=4 fit").
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#3 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-June-17, 12:55

View Postmycroft, on 2021-June-17, 11:14, said:

You probably can find online better - as in "taught" - responses, but mine:

  • no better response, could very easily be 3 spades; if so, probably no heart stopper;
  • simple raise (4 card);
  • invitational raise




Thanks, that is one intuitive and logical response scheme, but so is "respond as if she had bid 1" (USP RIP).
There aren't that many descriptions of actual responses online, and they vary considerably, including the two schemes above.
Bridgebum suggests:
1 = 3+ 11-14
2 = 4+ 15-17
3 = 4+ 18-19
4 = 4+ 20-21.

No apparent consensus on 2 cue either.
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#4 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2021-June-17, 13:35

View Postpescetom, on 2021-June-17, 09:59, said:



Opener's rebid over X showing 4=card spades is less well defined. What do others feel 1, 2, 3 should promise here?

And what should a 2 cue mean in both situations?


Playing strong NT as OP specifies,

1 = 3 spades, minimum, tends not to have positional heart stopper
2 = 4 spades, minimum (e.g. 11-14)
3 = 4 spades, better than minimum, unbalanced or 18-19 balanced

4 = splinter, enough for game opposite responder's minimum
4 = splinter

4 = 4 spades, long and very strong diamonds

4 = 4 spades, semi-balanced or balanced that looks like game opposite responder's minimum

2 = Initially asking for heart stopper
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#5 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2021-June-17, 13:41

View Postpescetom, on 2021-June-17, 12:55, said:

Bridgebum suggests:
1 = 3+ 11-14
2 = 4+ 15-17
3 = 4+ 18-19
4 = 4+ 20-21


Balanced 15-17 hands would open 1NT in a strong NT system?
Balanced 20-21+ hands would open 2NT?
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#6 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2021-June-17, 14:49

In the second auction, 1 is a weak 3 card raise; 2 is a weak 4 card raise; and 3 is an invitational 4 card raise. In both auctions the cue shows a big hand that cannot easily be shown, with the most common hand type being a balanced 18-19 without a stopper.
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#7 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-June-17, 14:59

View Postjohnu, on 2021-June-17, 13:41, said:

Balanced 15-17 hands would open 1NT in a strong NT system?
Balanced 20-21+ hands would open 2NT?


The bridgebum article gives examples with a singleton.
But I agree it does not look ideal.
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#8 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-June-18, 09:29

View Postjohnu, on 2021-June-17, 13:35, said:

2 = Initially asking for heart stopper

Are you convinced this is more useful than showing a big hand here?
2 already asks for heart stopper, even if ostensibly a suit.
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#9 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-June-18, 10:10

For intermediates, itís probably best to play, after 1m (1H) x (P):

1S: 3 card support or a terrible hand with 4, where the decision to open was borderline and the hand hasnít got any better so far

1N: balanced minimum with at least Qxx or Kx or Jxxx in hearts

2m natural

2S: 4 card fit, not embarrassed to have opened

2H: game force but otherwise ambiguous. Almost always either 4 spades and a good 18+ or a long, strong minor with the same values.does not deny a heart stopper. Responder is supposed to make the cheapest descriptive bid. Since responder has denied 5 spades, he can rebid 2S with a good 4 card suit if nothing else seems appropriate...this idea may seem too challenging for intermediates

3m.....if say opener started with 1D, then 3C is a strong jumpshift. Jump rebids of 3 of the opened minor are good 6+ suit, around 16 hcp, over which responder should be considering N with a stopper and adequate values.

3H is a splinter

More experienced players will, or some of them will, rebid 1N without a stopper, just to show a balanced minimum. This works ok provided that the partnership knows not to blast into 3N without one of them having a stopper😀
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#10 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-June-18, 13:03

View Postmikeh, on 2021-June-18, 10:10, said:

For intermediates, itís probably best to play, after 1m (1H) x (P):

1S: 3 card support or a terrible hand with 4, where the decision to open was borderline and the hand hasnít got any better so far

1N: balanced minimum with at least Qxx or Kx or Jxxx in hearts

2m natural

2S: 4 card fit, not embarrassed to have opened

2H: game force but otherwise ambiguous. Almost always either 4 spades and a good 18+ or a long, strong minor with the same values.does not deny a heart stopper. Responder is supposed to make the cheapest descriptive bid. Since responder has denied 5 spades, he can rebid 2S with a good 4 card suit if nothing else seems appropriate...this idea may seem too challenging for intermediates

3m.....if say opener started with 1D, then 3C is a strong jumpshift. Jump rebids of 3 of the opened minor are good 6+ suit, around 16 hcp, over which responder should be considering N with a stopper and adequate values.

3H is a splinter

More experienced players will, or some of them will, rebid 1N without a stopper, just to show a balanced minimum. This works ok provided that the partnership knows not to blast into 3N without one of them having a stopper😀


Thanks Mike. That's almost exactly as I play it, in particular 1S / 2S / 2H, but I was reluctant to proceed just on that basis.

I have one experienced partner who insists on rebidding 1N without a stopper. It's playable, but I'm not yet convinced it is worth it, at least when it is honestly disclosed.
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#11 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2021-June-18, 13:08

View Postpescetom, on 2021-June-18, 13:03, said:

I have one experienced partner who insists on rebidding 1N without a stopper. It's playable, but I'm not yet convinced it is worth it, at least when it is honestly disclosed.

Anyone here who thinks the alternative,

1-(1)-X-(P); 2 = NAT, could be 2344 without a heart stopper,

is playable?

I'll start a thread about what 'playable' means right now.
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#12 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-June-19, 03:37

View Postnullve, on 2021-June-18, 13:08, said:

Anyone here who thinks the alternative,

1-(1)-X-(P); 2 = NAT, could be 2344 without a heart stopper,

is playable?


We would open that shape 1◇, but I agree that there are some occasions when 1nt without a stopper will be the least of evils here. I was thinking about it more in general (including a 1nt overcall of opponent's one level opening, where this particular partner prefers not to promise a stopper, which is probably more playable if not explained).
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#13 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2021-June-19, 04:50

View Postpescetom, on 2021-June-19, 03:37, said:

We would open that shape 1◇

Ok, how about

1-(1)-X-(P); 2 = 11-15, 2-S5+C, could be 2335 without a heart stopper,

then?

Do we want to tell beginners that they should rather risk playing in a 5-1 or 5-0 minor fit than playing in 1N with a potentially wide open suit?
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#14 User is online   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-June-19, 07:29

View Postnullve, on 2021-June-19, 04:50, said:

Ok, how about

1-(1)-X-(P); 2 = 11-15, 2-S5+C, could be 2335 without a heart stopper,

then?

Do we want to tell beginners that they should rather risk playing in a 5-1 or 5-0 minor fit than playing in 1N with a potentially wide open suit?

Presumably partner would correct to your diamond fit with a void in clubs, and may even take some action with 4=4=4=1.
I think the form of scoring is also relevant. I'll brave 1NT with wide open suits at matchpoints, but at IMPs the bid is more of a stepping stone to 3NT. So if you decide that 1NT without a stopper is fine you need solid followup agreements, for example 2 asking ('system on' and even checkback are, in my experience, not sufficient in this scenario).
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#15 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2021-June-19, 10:41

View Postpescetom, on 2021-June-18, 09:29, said:

Are you convinced this is more useful than showing a big hand here?
2 already asks for heart stopper, even if ostensibly a suit.


I didn't mention 2 was a big hand but I didn't think I needed to. Why would you force the bidding that high without a very good hand.

As far as 2 asking for a heart stopper, what auction are you talking about??? 2 in the auction I was responding to just shows clubs, possibly only 3.
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#16 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-June-19, 15:26

View Postjohnu, on 2021-June-19, 10:41, said:

I didn't mention 2 was a big hand but I didn't think I needed to. Why would you force the bidding that high without a very good hand.

Yes even "just" asking for a stopper requires a fairly big hand too: but like mikeh I prefer it as a generic game force which does not deny a heart stopper.

View Postjohnu, on 2021-June-19, 10:41, said:

As far as 2 asking for a heart stopper, what auction are you talking about??? 2 in the auction I was responding to just shows clubs, possibly only 3.

It ostensibly shows clubs, might on occasion be 3 card, partner can raise it with 4 cards and good reason, but we both know that 3NT is still in the picture and a heart stopper is the first question.
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