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Kickback inadequate in this deal

#1 User is offline   Nirmalya 

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Posted 2021-July-13, 03:28

I had the following hand last night
♠️- QJxx
♥️- Jxxx
♦️- x
♣️ - AKQx

Partner opened 1♣️ Precision and ❤️ Was agreed as trumps. I initiated 4♠️ Kickback
4♠️-4NT (0/3)
5♣️- 5♦️(Trump Q + ♦️K)

Now I canít be sure if partner has ♠️K and canít find it without committing to 6 level. May be ♠️AK is missing

Any suggestions?
Of course there are other asking bids can be employed to get a much better result, but the point here is on Kickback only
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#2 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-July-13, 03:43

The point is that you don't launch into an ace ask if you don't know what to do after some of the responses.

Instead of bidding 4, cue 5 denying a spade control and if partner signs off, respect it. Also you're likely to be bidding a poor slam if partner has the ace of spades without the K.
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#3 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2021-July-13, 05:13

if would be good to see all the auction as 4441 hands as responder are difficult to bid in precision. impossible negative 1 and then jump or other way to show this hand? agree with cyberyeti than like blackwood or any conventional bid, if you use it and then cannot find a good bid after any partner's response you should not use convention in first place. here kickback did not help. cuebid is better.
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#4 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2021-July-13, 09:55

Agreeing with Cyberyeti. Why did you keycard when you didn't know if you were off AK? (minor point, why did you want to keycard as the weak hand (especially if partner knows your shape)? There are hands - there are always hands, and Precision "weaker hand" can be close, but there should be a reluctance to keycard as responder. This is why.)

Also agreeing with LBengtsson, where's the auction when hearts are agreed, and did you show your shape? My auction is:

1-3; (<4 controls, usually 8-12, 4441 with red singleton)
3-3; (4414)

and then hopefully partner has the cards to know what to do (tough here because he's got the same problem you do, he doesn't know you're not off AK. Of course, he also knows you're not off two diamond tricks.) Possibly it will go 4 (minimum, hearts), 5 (still interested, club cards) and he has everything he needs to know.
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#5 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-July-14, 12:37

Nothing to do with kickback. Everything to do with this pervasive habit amongst so many players to use keycard when they have no clue what to do over a predictable response


Iíve long argued that most aspiring players would improve their slam bidding immeasurably if they stopped using any keycard or ace asking bids for a year or two. By the end of that time they will have learned judgement and how to cuebid properly. Then they can go back to having keycard available. My guess is that theyíd use it a lot less than formerly, and find that their slam bidding was much better than it used to be.
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#6 User is offline   Nirmalya 

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Posted 2021-July-15, 06:04

Thanks all for really valuable suggestions. I really appreciate, and also fully agree with you all.
Just to let you know, I was playing with someone with whom we didnít have any prior agreement on 4-4-4-1 hands or any asking bids etc. so the bidding went 1♣️-1NT-2♦️-2♥️-4♥️
The best I could do was to use kickback (we had agreed on that)
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#7 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-July-15, 06:15

View PostNirmalya, on 2021-July-15, 06:04, said:

Thanks all for really valuable suggestions. I really appreciate, and also fully agree with you all.
Just to let you know, I was playing with someone with whom we didnít have any prior agreement on 4-4-4-1 hands or any asking bids etc. so the bidding went 1♣️-1NT-2♦️-2♥️-4♥️
The best I could do was to use kickback (we had agreed on that)


It's just core to old style precision that you respond 1 on these hands and then jump to show the 4441s.

On your actual auction, 5 is better than 4.
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#8 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2021-July-15, 07:08

View PostNirmalya, on 2021-July-15, 06:04, said:

Thanks all for really valuable suggestions. I really appreciate, and also fully agree with you all.
Just to let you know, I was playing with someone with whom we didn't have any prior agreement on 4-4-4-1 hands or any asking bids etc. so the bidding went 1♣️-1NT-2♦️-2♥️-4♥️
The best I could do was to use kickback (we had agreed on that)


View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-July-15, 06:15, said:

It's just core to old style precision that you respond 1 on these hands and then jump to show the 4441s.

On your actual auction, 5 is better than 4.

I've moved form Kickback to Kickbo during lockdown with the difference being that you show keycards & controls at the same time rather than asking for keycards.

On the above hand
4S - 0/2/4 keycards
4NT - 1/3/5 keycards with control
5 - 1/3 keycards with control, denies control unless shown earlier
5 - 1 keycard i.e. A or A/K with control
5 - 1 keycard i.e. A/K

Partner then bids further controls/signs off in 5, bids beyond 5 if all keycards are present.

In this case you bid 5 1/3 KC, denying a control
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#9 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-July-15, 12:23

View PostNirmalya, on 2021-July-15, 06:04, said:

Thanks all for really valuable suggestions. I really appreciate, and also fully agree with you all.
Just to let you know, I was playing with someone with whom we didnít have any prior agreement on 4-4-4-1 hands or any asking bids etc. so the bidding went 1♣️-1NT-2♦️-2♥️-4♥️
The best I could do was to use kickback (we had agreed on that)

The worst you could do was kickback.

Opener has shown a minimum with his 4H bid so you have no assurance of a slam opposite 3 keycards and the trump Queen

xx AKQx AQJxx xx

If you felt that you had to try for slam opposite an opener with 4=5 minimums then bid 5C, a cuebid in support of hearts

You will have denied a spade control, otherwise youíd bid 4N (the spade cue when playing kickback), so if he bids 5D, you know he has a spade control.

Now you bid 5H, because your trump are so poor.

With Kx AKQx AQxxx xx he owes you a 6H call since youíve tried for slam with bad trump opposite a minimum 1C openingÖof course, with that hand he probably should have bid 3H rather than 4H

Iíve never seen a hand on which there was no reasonable alternative to a silly keycard ask. Iíve seen lots of players who donít understand how to use such alternatives


Now, if opener thought that 4H showed extras, I suggest you discuss how bad it is to jump in these auctions. 4H should be a minimum, leaving room for cuebidding after a strength showing 3H.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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