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game try or cue?

#1 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-July-17, 14:33

My apologies if I have asked this before, I can't find the original question.

1:3 (limit raise, 4 card support, 10-11)
3

After a limit raise, does anyone play 3 (or 3) as a game try or should it always be a forward going cue, inviting partner to cue?

Conversely,
1:3 (constructive, 4 card 6-9)
3[] is a game try, but could be probe for slam.

I am interested in standard approaches that are appropriate for newer players , rather than specific, advanced gadgets that people are using, thanks!
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#2 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-July-17, 16:30

A game try should come after a weaker bid but there is less room so first thing to do is reverse the meanings of 3C and 3D but for simplicity just call all continuations cue bids and nothing has to change.
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#3 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2021-July-17, 16:35

Make your limit raise 9-11, 9-12 or 10-12 and now using 3 to split the range makes perfect sense.
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#4 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-July-17, 17:01

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-July-17, 16:30, said:

A game try should come after a weaker bid but there is less room so first thing to do is reverse the meanings of 3C and 3D but for simplicity just call all continuations cue bids and nothing has to change.


"A game try should come after a weaker bid", however opener is more likely to have slam interest after a limit raise so we preserve 3 bid for cue bidding.
Is it a coin toss or does one approach have clear advantages?



View PostGilithin, on 2021-July-17, 16:35, said:

Make your limit raise 9-11, 9-12 or 10-12 and now using 3 to split the range makes perfect sense.

If my partner routinely opened on 11 I would stretch my limit raise to 12 but with fairly sound openings 12 is gf for me.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#5 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2021-July-17, 18:12

View Postjillybean, on 2021-July-17, 17:01, said:

Is it a coin toss or does one approach have clear advantages?

You can actually do both. After 3, Responder bids 3 to accept the game try and 3 to decline it. Then any call except 4 (over 3) or Pass (over 3) shows the cue.


View Postjillybean, on 2021-July-17, 17:01, said:

If my partner routinely opened on 11 I would stretch my limit raise to 12 but with fairly sound openings 12 is gf for me.

In that case, if you wanted to use 3 as a game try (or 2-way as above) you could just play it as 9-11 and make the weak raise (5)6-8. You might consider using these ranges even if you made the (sensible) switch between the 3m raises as suggested by Winston as it optimises the accuracy of your game bidding.
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#6 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2021-July-17, 18:19

View Postjillybean, on 2021-July-17, 14:33, said:

My apologies if I have asked this before, I can't find the original question.
1:3 (limit raise, 4 card support, 10-11)
3 = After a limit raise, does anyone play 3 (or 3) as a game try or should it always be a forward going cue, inviting partner to cue?

Conversely,
1:3 (constructive, 4 card 6-9)
3 is a game try, but could be probe for slam.
I am interested in standard approaches that are appropriate for newer players , rather than specific, advanced gadgets that people are using, thanks!

Declarer can

  • Sign off in 3M without game interest.
  • Jump to game with extras or long trumps.
  • The cheapest bid below 3M can show borderline game-interest. (camouflage)
  • Any other bid can be a cue/slam-try.
  • Some experts designate a special meaning to 3N (e.g. serious slam-try).

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#7 User is online   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2021-July-18, 00:52

How about?
3 as either the 4 card constructive or limit raise. 3 asks which?
3 is the 3 card limit raise
3 slam try.
or
3 3+ card raise 8mlt. 3 asks 3 or 4+
3 4+ limit 8.5 mlt
3 4+ constructive 8.5/8 mlt
or
Construct something similar that complements the rest of your structure
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#8 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-July-18, 02:51

As others have noted, you can have both. A simple (but slightly suboptimal) scheme is that over 1M-3m (showing some sort of raise) partner treats the cheapest rebid as a range ask/game try. Responder bids 3M with a minimum, and their cheapest control with a maximum (and hopefully a maximum with 0 controls does not exist, but you could reserve 3NT for that). Opener can pass 3M with a game try, bid 4M with a game try after hearing a control, and any other bid is a slam try with the previous bid having been an advance cue (so a control in the bid suit, not a game try at all).

The only downside is that responder will give away information about their hand on sharp game auctions. This is a big downside, and you can use more sophisticated (step) responses to fix this. But at least this is a simple scheme and it also works in competition, showing either some game try or an advance cue, so this method has the virtue of being easy to remember.
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