[Bill1pop2]

Hi All.
Recently started playing 5cm , strong NT and short club. I'm not sure Which suit would I open if I have 6 clubs / diamonds and 5 of a major ? If I have 4 diamonds and 5 clubs do you open the Diamond as you have 4 diamonds? By bidding 1c does this deny a 5cm suit and 4 diamonds ?

[Cyberyeti]

You've hit on 2 contentious issues.

2245 in NT range are often opened 1N, I would almost always open 1♣ with 4-5 but some disagree.

If you're 5116 you can open 1♣ and rebid 1♠ over 1red, if you're 1516 1♣-1♠ is awkward, some (particularly in the US) will open the major most of the time. It may also matter if you play 2/1 GF or not and whether 1♥-2♦-3♣ if you do shows extras and whether you have any.

[AL78]

If the 5 card major is spades and the six card minor is clubs, there is no problem, open the minor and bid the major next time. If you have 6 diamonds and 5 spades, it depends on how strong you are. If you are strong enough to reverse, open 1D and bid 2S if partner responds 2C. If you are not strong enough to reverse, treat it as a 5-5 shape and open 1S. If you are 5422 shape, think how you would feel rebidding the 5 card suit if you can't show the 4 card suit next round. If the 5 card suit is poor and there is a good chance partner's response will prevent you showing the 4 card suit, open 1NT if in HCP range. Opening 1C does not deny a diamond suit, you could have 6 clubs and 4 diamonds, nor does it deny a 5 card major, though the frequency of hands where you would hold a 5 card major after opening 1C is very low.

[DavidKok]

As Cyberyeti pointed out the questions you've asked have multiple answers and depend on partnership agreement. I'd like to add to the above that modern bidding systems go out of their way to show "shape first", so ideally your bidding system would allow you to open 1m with 6m5M even with weaker hands. Most systems have literally no way to convince partner you have exactly 5 of a major and 6 of a minor after opening 1M, so you would only choose this out of tactical considerations (and sell the hand as a 5=5, never showing the sixth card in the minor suit).

The system I play has good solutions to most of these, but still struggles with minimum value openings (say 8-11 HCP) with exactly 5 hearts and 6 clubs. I will open those hands 1♥ for lack of a better alternative.

It is standard to open 1NT or 1♣ with 4 diamonds and 5 clubs. This is a weak point of many bidding systems, since it is very difficult to show the diamond suit later (especially if you play some form of Walsh). Some partnerships opt to open 1♦ with that holding, but this is not standard and has other downsides. In particular, you would need partnership discussion on how to show this shape during the subsequent auction.

[johnu]

Cyberyeti, on 2021-December-05, 03:32, said:

If you're 5116 you can open 1♣ and rebid 1♠ over 1red, if you're 1516 1♣-1♠ is awkward, some (particularly in the US) will open the major most of the time.

Not only is

---

very awkward when you have a minimum hand with clubs and hearts, but

---

is very awkward when you have a minimum hand with clubs and either hearts or spades.

If you open 1♣ and rebid 2 of your major in these auctions, partner will correctly assume you have a reverse.

[Evies Dad]

1C-1NT is rather unusual and precise.
Any rebid by opener other than 2C has to be considered in that light.

[helene_t]

W.r.t. 4♦5♣ it depends a bit on your rebid style. If you generally raise on 3-card support and rebid 1NT with a singleton in partner's suit, you don't have a rebid problem with those hands anyway so you might as well bid whichever suit you want partner to lead.

[Cyberyeti]

Evies Dad, on 2021-December-05, 04:40, said:

1C-1NT is rather unusual and precise.
Any rebid by opener other than 2C has to be considered in that light.

Depends on system if you respond 1N with some balanced ish diamond hands (3343/3352), but you are guaranteed a 6-2 club fit at least, possibly 6-3, in our case 6-4. It is entirely reasonable particularly if you bid diamonds if you have them to play 2M as reverse or weak 6-5.

[mw64ahw]

I take a binary approach and open all 5 card Majors regardless of the length of the minor suit as this removes any ambiguity
When long a minor responder will often have at least 2M so you play in 2M with a Minimum hand or partner can pass your 2-level 2nd suit bid (assuming 2♣ isn't artificial) or indicate a raise with 2NT when max.
When opener is distributionally, but not hcp strong, I will bid the 2nd suit at the 3 level with at least 5+.
I have a variety of ways to show the strong hands depending on suit opened and the 2nd suit with subsequent bids then defining the length of either suit.

When I started play short ♣ I did this in conjunction with an unbalanced ♦ so the suit opens depends on whether the shape is 22(54) or (31)(54)

[DavidKok]

mw64ahw, on 2021-December-05, 09:00, said:

I take a binary approach and open all 5 card Majors regardless of the length of the minor suit as this removes any ambiguity
When long a minor responder will often have at least 2M so you play in 2M with a Minimum hand or partner can pass your 2-level 2nd suit bid (assuming 2♣ isn't artificial) or indicate a raise with 2NT when max.
When opener is distributionally, but not hcp strong, I will bid the 2nd suit at the 3 level with at least 5+.
I have a variety of ways to show the strong hands depending on suit opened and the 2nd suit with subsequent bids then defining the length of either suit.

When I started play short ♣ I did this in conjunction with an unbalanced ♦ so the suit opens depends on whether the shape is 22(54) or (31)(54)

I hope your opponents have taken a vow of silence for the bidding.

[mw64ahw]

Methods are of course different with interference, but opening a Major first leaves opponents less room to interfere

[johnu]

Evies Dad, on 2021-December-05, 04:40, said:

1C-1NT is rather unusual and precise.
Any rebid by opener other than 2C has to be considered in that light.

Depends on who is responding 1NT. The light that needs to be considered is that any rebid other than 2♣ shows considerable extras.

[Cyberyeti]

johnu, on 2021-December-05, 16:33, said:

Depends on who is responding 1NT. The light that needs to be considered is that any rebid other than 2♣ shows considerable extras.

Not necessarily, if you have 5 hearts and 6 clubs, that IS considerable extras if your 1N guarantees you a 6-4 fit (as it does for us).

AKxxx/Axxxxx is very likely enough to make game opposite xx/Kxxx in your suits

[johnu]

Cyberyeti, on 2021-December-05, 17:37, said:

Not necessarily, if you have 5 hearts and 6 clubs, that IS considerable extras if your 1N guarantees you a 6-4 fit (as it does for us).

AKxxx/Axxxxx is very likely enough to make game opposite xx/Kxxx in your suits

Something like

---

is a very good 5-6 hand.

Something like

---

doesn't play nearly as well.

[mikeh]

mw64ahw, on 2021-December-05, 09:00, said:

I take a binary approach and open all 5 card Majors regardless of the length of the minor suit as this removes any ambiguity

This gets my vote as the silliest comment of the year. Removes all ambiguity? Lol.

[mikeh]

The OP asks interesting questions and, as others have commented, the issues are complex and often system dependent.

I usually play somewhat esoteric methods, but have a long history of playing fairly standard (whatever that means) 2/1, so my comments are in that context. Also, despite having played a fair amount of weak notrump methods, I’ll discuss this in the context of a strong, 15-17, approach.

With 5=6 blacks, there is no hand on which I’d open 1S. I’d always bid 1C. Then if the auction permits, I can bid spades twice, thus showing 5=6 or better…at least 5 spades and longer clubs. 5=6 is far more frequent than other such combinations.

With 5=6 hearts and clubs, it depends.

I happily reverse 5=6 with a good 13, all my values in my suits. If I have values outside the suits, and only a moderate opening hand, I’ll treat it as 5=5 and open 1H

x AQJxx x AKxxxx is for me a comfortable reverse after a 1S or 1N response. I’ll show the 5=6 next time if the auction permits. It’s very useful to play methods over reverses, such as ingberman. You can see my pinned thread on reverses, although I wouldn’t play reverses exactly as I did back then.

The same is true with 5H and 6D.

5S and 6D: I always bid 1D. The arguments are a little different from 1C, after which responder, absent competition, is usually responding at the one level.

After 1D, responder might bid 2C, but then h3 has values and I’m not at all embarrassed about bidding spades twice…1D 2C 2S is often played as suggesting more than a minimum but I don’t think anyone plays it as a full reverse.

After 1C 1N, it’s common in NA to require 8-10 for 1N, responding with a mark time 1D with a weaker hand unwilling to raise clubs and lacking a major.

Btw, I note that cyber suggests he’d respond 1N with 3=3=5=2. I truly hate that. I think it’s awful.

If you have a hand with fewer than opening values, opener is stronger, so it’s best to let opener declare, both to conceal assets and to right side the contract. If, on the other hand, responder has good values, wtf is wrong with describing one’s hand?

Plus, if 1N promises at least 3 clubs, as imo it should, opener is better positioned to compete if 4th seat overcall 2M and is also better positioned to pull 1N to a club partial with a weak shapely opening.

The other part of the OP is about the perennial and as yet unresolved issue of 4=5 minors.

It’s important to remember that the opponents are allowed to bid. So it’s naive to argue that one always opens 1C on minimum 2245 hands, because you can rebid 1N over a 1M response.

Qx xx AJxx KQxxx. After 1m (1S) x (p) it seems misguided to rebid 1N, lol. Edit: this is what happens with long posts where I don’t review carefully before posting. I meant too give opener Qx in partner’s suit, not LHO. With Qx xx, I’d happily rebid 1N given no raise or redouble. But my point was to be prepared for the bidding. Had LHO overcaller 1H, rebidding 1N with my example hand would appear to me to be misguided. Sorry for the error, and thanks to Stephen for pointing out what I’d written

Anyway, my approach has always been to open 1C with the vast majority of 4=5 hands ill-suited to a 1N opening, because of strength.

Once in a while I have to rebid a poor suit if I can’t bid notrump due to the opps. That’s a negative

The alternative, in my view and experience is worse. 1D 1M 2C leaves responder in a terrible position with hands such as a 5=3=2=3 9 count. The 2C rebid could be minimum or just short of a gf jumpshift, so responder strains to keep the auction alive, and will commonly do this by bidding 2D. This is fine if opener is weak with 5=4, since it’s a 7 card fit, which is likely the best one can do. But if he can be 4=5, you can see that the end result is unlikely to be happy.

So I open 1D only with an inability to rebid 1N (including anticipating a 1M overcall) AND with a very good diamond suit and a weak club suit. AKQx Jxxxx is exaggerated but shows what I mean.

[mw64ahw]

mikeh, on 2021-December-05, 20:25, said:

This gets my vote as the silliest comment of the year. Removes all ambiguity? Lol.

... as to whether opener has a 5 card major. Perhaps the silliest thing is writing and assuming all.

[pilowsky]

OP frames the question in the context of "short club", but doesn't the problem described exist using better minor as well?
I think we had a discussion about the significance of better minor vs short club a while back but I would like to know what specific theoretical problem using short club solves.

[mikeh]

pilowsky, on 2021-December-06, 00:20, said:

OP frames the question in the context of "short club", but doesn't the problem described exist using better minor as well?
I think we had a discussion about the significance of better minor vs short club a while back but I would like to know what specific theoretical problem using short club solves.

I think that simply playing ‘short club’ doesn’t offer any net theoretical benefit in and of itself

It works well in a Walsh style approach, in which. 1D response denies a 4 card major unless diamonds are longer than the major and responder has a good hand. Some play that a ‘good hand’ means invitational or better: I prefer that responder has to have game values.

The reason it works well is that opener can conceal his major shape with a balanced hand, rebidding 1N over a 1D response. No major fit is ever missed since responder won’t have a major unless strong enough to bid over 1N

Transfer Walsh is even better, but that’s an entirely different level of complexity and there are many versions of transfer Walsh, so simply saying ‘let’s play transfer in response to 1C’ is meaningless without a lot of additional discussion

Bypassing a major in order to rebid 1N with a balanced minimum has enormous benefits and no discernible downsides.

The opponents are often on lead against 1N or 3N, etc, not knowing if opener has either or both majors. Countless times opponents lead into opener’s good major, losing a trick immediately and concurrently giving declarer a tempo in the play.

And when 1N is passed to 4th seat, it’s far more dangerous to balance in a major (or to ask partner to choose a major) when opener could be as much as 4=4 in those suits.

And it gets better: say the auction goes 1C 1D 1S

Responder knows now that opener has at least 4 spades and longer clubs…he is at least 4=5 in the blacks.

Imagine a common hand type such as Qx Jxx KJxxx Jxx

Bid 1N and opener may hold AJxx x xxx AKxxx

The opps run 5 hearts at him right away, and 1N is almost certainly down. Bid 2C instead, knowing you have an 8 card fit.

Or give responder a good hand with 4 clubs. Say Kx Axx KQJx QJxx

If opener would bid 1S on some 4333 or 4324, you’d probably want to be in 3N, but if he promises shape for 1S, you may be able to bid a club slam.

So short club works well in a Walsh style and extremely well in a transfer Walsh style. But if you bid ‘up the line’, I think that, subject to the next paragraph, short club methods are not very good.

Finally, ignoring Walsh altogether, there is a modest competitive advantage if 1D promises at least 4 diamonds…say it goes 1D (1S) and responder has a modest hand with 4 diamonds. It can be dangerous to raise diamonds if partner might have only 3. Of course, the converse is true…when opener could have as few as two clubs, raising clubs is dangerous. The good news is that diamonds outrank clubs so it is very slightly better to improve your diamond bidding than your club bidding.

However, I’d advise against opening 1C on a singleton, so for me ‘short club’ should be 2+ and I wouldn’t do it if we bid up the line.

[AL78]

mikeh, on 2021-December-06, 01:40, said:

However, I’d advise against opening 1C on a singleton, so for me ‘short club’ should be 2+ and I wouldn’t do it if we bid up the line.

There is a pair at my club that played 1♦/♥/♠ opening showed five cards so a 1♣ opening could be as short as one. It is the only time I have seen a short club system that short.