[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2022-March-17, 08:20, said:

To each his own.

Personally, strong jumpshifts seem to me to:

a) come up infrequently

b) preempt our constructive auctions on precisely those hands on which we most often need bidding space

With your AJxx x AQJ10x xxx my view is that splintering is bizarre and would reflect a very weak understanding of bidding concepts.

Bidding 3D seems, I say with respect, almost as bad.

While I would never use J2N with that hand, I can at least understand those who would. At least that gets across two of the four critical elements of the hand: a big fit and some slam interest.

Me: I’d force to game via 2D and then raise spades. Since for me 1S 2D 2S doesn’t show extra length (hence is a fairly common rebid) I may get to bid 4H next…showing (drumroll, please) 5+ diamonds, good spades,short hearts and slam interest.

And if partner makes the second commonest rebid, 2N, again I can bid 4H.

Funny how those sequences seem to describe my hand��

2/1 has become the dominant bidding philosophy in the expert game (most big club methods, which are very popular with NA pairs, use 2/1 principles…I’m discussing this aspect, not the family of standard based methods grouped as 2/1) for a very good reason: conservation of bidding space.

Strong jumpshifts violate that principle. Of course, one can argue that tightly defining jumpshifts clarifies other strength showing sequences, since partner can exclude the jumpshift hand types when not used. Fwiw my view is that one ought very carefully to weigh the other uses to which the SJS bid can be put, so as to weigh the net costs and benefits.

For example, using 1S 3H as an unspecified singleton (or void heart) is a net, if often modest, winner when opener signs off, and loses very little, if any, compared to normal splinters when opener is interested. Plus it allows 1M 4m to show a void….while such hands are rare, there is a very big difference, in terms of slam potential, between a void and a stiff

In the other of my two partnerships, we use 1S 3D as invitational in hearts or a strong jumpshift in hearts, with 1S 3H showing a 4 card limit raise in spades. While I prefer the splinter usage, this other approach has worked well when it arises.

2♦ not GF for us. It sounds like your sequences never conclusively show the 4th spade. 2N in our sequences as a rebid may be a very different animal to what I suspect it is in yours and not necessarily most common. I'd put odds on 2♥ being most common, now your stiff heart may be awkward to show.

3♦ is actually pretty precise, enough to GF, 4 spades to a top honour and 5+ good diamonds (or the old fashioned rock crushing single suited GF).

I agree you should weigh the uses of the other bids, presumably you play 3m as raises of 1M, playing 4 card majors as I do this is much less popular.

[mikeh]

DavidKok, on 2022-March-17, 08:29, said:

I'd go so far as to say it shows exactly 5 diamonds, or a weak 6(+) suit (very improbable). With a good 6(+) diamonds you can presumably jump to 4♦ on the second round.

For me, jumping to 4D over either 2S or 2N would show a solid diamond suit (AKQJxx and usually longer) and strong slam interest.it wouldn’t show primary spades…indeed, it would deny primary spades. It forces to 4N (over 2N) or higher (over 2S, I won’t be passing 4S should opener bid it). Opener is expected to cue 4H if he can.

Edit: with 6 diamonds, not including six solid plus strong slam interest, I just rebid 3D. We’re committed to game already.

[mikeh]

Cyberyeti, on 2022-March-17, 08:46, said:

2♦ not GF for us. It sounds like your sequences never conclusively show the 4th spade. 2N in our sequences as a rebid may be a very different animal to what I suspect it is in yours and not necessarily most common. I'd put odds on 2♥ being most common, now your stiff heart may be awkward to show.

3♦ is actually pretty precise, enough to GF, 4 spades to a top honour and 5+ good diamonds (or the old fashioned rock crushing single suited GF).

I agree you should weigh the uses of the other bids, presumably you play 3m as raises of 1M, playing 4 card majors as I do this is much less popular.

If I bid diamonds then splinter, I’m not saying I have four spades and heart shortness. I don’t need to be so precise.

I’m saying I have 5+ diamonds, primary spade support, heart shortage and at least mild slam interest.

Partner will evaluate his hand. He doesn’t need great spades in order to move…he’s looking at his club holding, his diamond holding, his heart holding and his spade holding. In that context, does he like his hand?

He’ll upgrade the heart Ace, downgrade lesser heart cards, upgrade the diamond King, downgrade if lacking the club Ace, upgrade a sixth spade, see KQxxx as neutral, and so on. Note that none of this involves assigning numerical values to any holding. We like or dislike aspects or the entirety of a hand based on what we learn with each round of the bidding. Hands we like…we push. Hands we don’t like…we stop cooperating.

And,yes, we play 5 card majors. I have played four card majors quite often so my dislike of them is not due to a lack of experience. Simply put, 2/1 doesn’t work well with 4 card major methods and of the many methods I’ve played, 2/1 (in various forms including relay, big club, variable notrump, multi, etc) seems to work best for me. YEMD.

Note that I would not splinter with, say, AJx x AQJ10x KJxx. I’d bid 3S, which shows a mild slam try and either no shortness or extra values of some kind.

When I consume space by a second round splinter, he’ll know I’m unlikely to hold a club control, yet I’m still interested in slam.

I’d be very surprised to miss a good slam, and definitely won’t miss it ‘because he can’t tell how long my spades are’.

[DavidKok]

Cyberyeti, on 2022-March-17, 08:46, said:

2♦ not GF for us. It sounds like your sequences never conclusively show the 4th spade.

The way I play it, at least, the jump on the second round shows four-card support. With only three you show the diamonds, then raise the spades, and hopefully get to show your control later. With something like AKx we may bluff a bit ('it looks like 4-card support').

mikeh, on 2022-March-17, 08:48, said:

For me, jumping to 4D over either 2S or 2N would show a solid diamond suit (AKQJxx and usually longer) and strong slam interest.it wouldn’t show primary spades…indeed, it would deny primary spades. It forces to 4N (over 2N) or higher (over 2S, I won’t be passing 4S should opener bid it). Opener is expected to cue 4H if he can.

Edit: with 6 diamonds, not including six solid plus strong slam interest, I just rebid 3D. We’re committed to game already.

Ah, I show the solid diamond suit by bidding 3♦ then 4♦, although that usually shows 7(+). The jump shows 4(+) spades and a good suit, similar to 1♦-1♠; 4♦. Of course without a special type of hand you just rebid 3♦, no need to burn perfectly good bidding space.

[nullve]

mikeh, on 2022-March-17, 08:20, said:

Me: I’d force to game via 2D and then raise spades. Since for me 1S 2D 2S doesn’t show extra length (hence is a fairly common rebid) I may get to bid 4H next…showing (drumroll, please) 5+ diamonds, good spades,short hearts and slam interest.

And if partner makes the second commonest rebid, 2N, again I can bid 4H.

Funny how those sequences seem to describe my hand��

But maybe because of vagueness?

"5+ diamonds" = ? [♦xxxxx and ♦KQJTxx both ok?]
"good spades" = ? [♠Axx and ♠xxxx both ok?]
"short hearts" = ? [singleton and void both ok?]
"slam interest" = ? [AJx x AQJTx xxxx and AJxx x AQJTx Kxx both ok?]

Is AJx x AQJTx KJxx a possible hand?

mikeh, on 2022-March-17, 09:05, said:

Note that I would not splinter with, say, AJx x AQJ10x KJxx. I’d bid 3S, which shows a mild slam try and either no shortness or extra values of some kind.

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2022-March-17, 09:05, said:

If I bid diamonds then splinter, I’m not saying I have four spades and heart shortness. I don’t need to be so precise.

How do you splinter over 1♠-2♦-2♥ ? (which must be quite likely)

[Douglas43]

Quite like playing 3NT=16-18. Allows more dialogue on the 13-15 hands.

[helene_t]

Last Sunday, I went to Amsterdam to play a tourney with a Dutch friend. We played miserably but one of our few good boards was:
xxx
AKQxxx
xx
Ax

1♥-(pass)-3NT*-(pass)
pass!

3NT shows a balanced 12-14 with support. I reasoned that partner probably wouldn't have any ruffing value, that we quite possibly just have some 10 or 11 tricks to cash without any suit to develop, and that the hand probably plays best in his hand. So I passed. 3NT+1 was quite good as almost everyone made the same number of tricks in a heart contract.

[mikeh]

Cyberyeti, on 2022-March-17, 10:05, said:

How do you splinter over 1♠-2♦-2♥ ? (which must be quite likely)

I don’t

But we do have a LOT of room compared to having bid 3D over 1S. As for ‘quite likely’, that’s a very bold statement.

2H is definitely possible, but ‘quite likely’ overstates the probabilities by ‘quite a lot’, lol. He has at most 8 non spades and may have fewer. While our shape impacts the odds, the chances of half or more of his non spades being hearts is not particularly high. He’s far more likely than not to hold 3 or fewer….note that the opps likely lack the hcp/suit length and texture, to bid, especially if we have slam, so one cannot safely infer anything much from their silence.

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2022-March-17, 11:39, said:

I don’t

But we do have a LOT of room compared to having bid 3D over 1S. As for ‘quite likely’, that’s a very bold statement.

2H is definitely possible, but ‘quite likely’ overstates the probabilities by ‘quite a lot’, lol. He has at most 8 non spades and may have fewer. While our shape impacts the odds, the chances of half or more of his non spades being hearts is not particularly high. He’s far more likely than not to hold 3 or fewer….note that the opps likely lack the hcp/suit length and texture, to bid, especially if we have slam, so one cannot safely infer anything much from their silence.

Less likely for you, MY partner WILL have a second 4 card suit unless 15+ or has 6+ spades and it's more likely to be hearts than either of the others.

[AL78]

mikeh, on 2022-March-17, 08:20, said:

While I would never use J2N with that hand, I can at least understand those who would. At least that gets across two of the four critical elements of the hand: a big fit and some slam interest.

I don't play 2/1 so I would bid J2N with that hand.

[mikeh]

nullve, on 2022-March-17, 09:45, said:

But maybe because of vagueness?

"5+ diamonds" = ? [♦xxxxx and ♦KQJTxx both ok?]
"good spades" = ? [♠Axx and ♠xxxx both ok?]
"short hearts" = ? [singleton and void both ok?]
"slam interest" = ? [AJx x AQJTx xxxx and AJxx x AQJTx Kxx both ok?]

Is AJx x AQJTx KJxx a possible hand?

Lol


You think that I would treat xxxxx as equivalent to KQJ10x?

No…even you aren’t that silly.

I’m not going to dignify the rest of your ‘questions’ with detailed answers since you’re either an extremely bad player or you think I am (or both of course) or you’re trolling. But you might want to consider that the post that you suggest was too vague was in specific response to a precise example posted by cyber. Why you think I was exhaustively defining all similar hand types is beyond me.

But should you want to learn a little more about the game…..I have lessons available…for a price. I think I’d charge extra for you😀

[kereru67]

I guess in general my feeling is that bidding is a conversation, and if your partner makes an open-ended bid, you should avoid conversation-shutters like an immediate 3NT. If you must jump in response to an open-ended bid, then make it a bid that clearly defines your hand (e.g. splinter, or a very precise shape and point count in the case of 3NT). After that, your partner is in charge and decides the final contract.

[mycroft]

I agree with your last two sentences. But I reiterate that *in this auction*, 3NT is no more a "conversation-shutter" than 3♠ splinter. In many auctions, sure. Just not this one.