[michel444]

---

you play your Favorite 5 cards Major
your partner Deal and open 1 heart
1. what are you option ?
2 what each of them mean ?
3.what you chose and why ?

Michel

[smerriman]

My 1st option is 1♠ which shows 4+ ♠.

I don't have a second option so I choose my first option.

[mw64ahw]

1♠ in a Kaplan Inversion context which is either a Forcing NT equivalent or 5+♠ GI. It's the system I play so I choose it. With 4♥ instead of 3 I have a choice of bids.

[pescetom]

My 1st option is 1S showing 4+ card S, unlimited.
My 2nd option is 2C which is a GF showing one of several hand types, including 3 card H support.
I choose the former almost automatically because it is more descriptive and allows us to ascertain the possible double major fit (and maybe keep my tenace off the table).

[DavidKok]

I would bid 2NT, showing an invitational or minimum game forcing hand with heart support. The spades look impressive but our followup actions are a lot easier if we support partner immediately.

[michel444]

i will post the other side in a week

[mcphee]

I can not imagine not showing this !S suit, this is the sort of hand that could easily produce 12 tricks

[mikeh]

 DavidKok, on 2022-September-30, 02:23, said:

I would bid 2NT, showing an invitational or minimum game forcing hand with heart support. The spades look impressive but our followup actions are a lot easier if we support partner immediately.

I don’t understand why our follow up actions are difficult after most rebids by partner. Plus, to me, 2N suggests we’re taking control rather than trying to describe our hand to partner. I strongly believe in collaborative bidding at the early stages of constructive auctions unless it seems clear that taking charge right away is best.

If partner rebids 1N or 2H, we can bid 4H

If partner bids 2m, we bid 4SF or 4H. We really have no slam interest opposite a 2D rebid. Opposite 2C, 2D is cheap and might catch an improbable 2S or even 3S (say AJx AQxxx x KQxx)

I don’t know your follow ups over 2N but I suspect opener’s first clear picture of the main feature of your hand will be when you lay down dummy.

[pescetom]

Also, opposite 1N, 2D should be an artificial game force and will catch spades support or allow us to fix trumps in hearts, both below game level.

My own follow ups over 2N allow opener to learn about 3/4 card and any shortage or common balanced shape, not a holding of 5 cards in the other major. But then we would never hide it in the first place.

[DavidKok]

 mikeh, on 2022-September-30, 11:00, said:

I don’t understand why our follow up actions are difficult after most rebids by partner. Plus, to me, 2N suggests we’re taking control rather than trying to describe our hand to partner. I strongly believe in collaborative bidding at the early stages of constructive auctions unless it seems clear that taking charge right away is best.

If partner rebids 1N or 2H, we can bid 4H

If partner bids 2m, we bid 4SF or 4H. We really have no slam interest opposite a 2D rebid. Opposite 2C, 2D is cheap and might catch an improbable 2S or even 3S (say AJx AQxxx x KQxx)

I don’t know your follow ups over 2N but I suspect opener’s first clear picture of the main feature of your hand will be when you lay down dummy.

No, I play de Maas, which makes opener captain. The followups are not at all similar to popular conventions like Jacoby. Also note that my 2NT is limited, approximately good 9 to bad 14. Opener really has a pretty detailed picture of what is going on, and can ask for 3 versus 4(+) card support, shortness, min/max or just blast game.

I play Gazzilli over 1♥-1♠, so over for example 1♥-1♠; 2♣*-2♦*; <any>-? I have no way to show 3-card heart support. Similarly, if partner jumps 1♥-1♠; 3m-4♥ might work well but loses the option to investigate slam if partner has 6-5 or so (picture ♠Ax, ♥AQxxxx, ♦-, ♣Txxxx).

In addition I think the 4SF standard route isn't all that good either. Let's say the auction (standard) goes 1♥-1♠; 2♣-2♦*; 3♣-3♥. Is this 3-card support, or a punt with diamond weakness, suggesting the 5-2 fit over 3NT? Are we looking for slam or are we scrambling for any game?

Direct support risks losing a spade fit (though I have ways to recover over 2NT), and the more serious risk is that partner will jump to 4♥ with spade shortage, hoping to push the opponents out. But I think we're going to game regardless, and we'll find a secondary spade fit with our slam investigation scheme over 2NT anyway. As a plus, on the auction 1♥-2NT; 4♥ we might bait out a spade lead, or at least we haven't disclosed more than strictly necessary. Sometimes we'll play in a 5-3 heart fit when a 5-3 or even 5-4 spade fit exists, but it's low frequency enough to have a minimum GF double major suit fit without the opps interfering that I'm prepared to risk it. And if they do interfere with both minors I prefer showing support immediately over showing some spades (can be 4).

[nullve]

 michel444, on 2022-September-29, 20:25, said:

---

you play your Favorite 5 cards Major
your partner Deal and open 1 heart
1. what are you option ?
2 what each of them mean ?
3.what you chose and why ?

Michel

1. 2♣ only (because of 3.)
2. a) GF w/ primary C b) not too unBAL, wants to relay (GF) rather than describe c) INV+ with support
3. Compared with the only conceivable (but unsystemic) alternative, 1♠: Leaks less information on game-only deals (in fact no more than if playing de Maas) and works just as well on slam deals (because essentially the same relay structure will be available).

[Gilithin]

I either respond 1♠ (showing 4+ spades); 1♠ (artificially showing a good hand); or 1NT (showing a game-forcing hand with 4+ spades) depending on which system I decided to go for on that particular session. 2♣ as a game-forcing relay would be an option for some pairs but I have not personally ever played that.

[pescetom]

 DavidKok, on 2022-September-30, 13:26, said:

No, I play de Maas, which makes opener captain. The followups are not at all similar to popular conventions like Jacoby. Also note that my 2NT is limited, approximately good 9 to bad 14. Opener really has a pretty detailed picture of what is going on, and can ask for 3 versus 4(+) card support, shortness, min/max or just blast game.

But your real problem is Gazzilli, understood.
Our 2NT is nominally limited to invitation, but many play it up to bad 14 because this is clearly feasible.
Our opener can ask 3♣ with much the same possibilities (except range), but I wouldn't call it detailed.

 DavidKok, on 2022-September-30, 13:26, said:

In addition I think the 4SF standard route isn't all that good either. Let's say the auction (standard) goes 1♥-1♠; 2♣-2♦*; 3♣-3♥. Is this 3-card support, or a punt with diamond weakness, suggesting the 5-2 fit over 3NT? Are we looking for slam or are we scrambling for any game?

I agree this looks like a chink in the standard armour, although I imagine people like mikeh have the situation under control.
We play that this is 3-card support inviting a courtesy control-bid, our diamond weakness is already evident and partner with Qx would have taken his chances.
The more likely alternative 1♥-1♠; 1NT-2♦ (XYZ) opens up a motorway of descriptive bids.

[DavidKok]

Gazzilli is not the main problem, I think standard continuations make it hard to show a GF hand with heart support over 1♥-1♠. It is worse with Gazzilli though. If opener rebids 1NT we are safe since slam is off the table with this hand, and if opener rebids 2♦ or higher in a Gazzilli context, or 2♥ without it, we are also well placed to take charge. But over 1♥-1♠; 2m (standard) we usually have to start with 4S(G)F, then support hearts usually at the 3♥ level which is ambiguous and also lost bidding space compared to a direct raise. If anything I'd prefer 2♣ GF (depends on style - for most, clubs or fit or balanced, for some completely artificial) to 1♠, especially if the hand were just a little bit stronger than this. Thankfully I don't have to lie, I have de Maas.

There's a second set of standard auctions that are painful - 1♥-1♠; 3m, especially 3♦. Is 3♥ a punt or a slam try with 3-card support in hearts? Presumably a jump to the 4-level establishes partner's minor suit as trumps for a slam try. Maybe others have more streamlined systems, but I don't know how to make a forcing bid setting hearts as trumps after that start, so all our extras go undisclosed. Maybe 4♥ should show this hand, or 3♥ then pulling whatever partner bids to 4♥ (and let us hope partner didn't just bid that in front of our nose), with some inference that with a weak hand we'd bypass 5 (and even 6?) spades to show immediate support.

By the way, over 1♥-1♠; 2NT - what does partner show, and which response shows a slam try in hearts?