[helene_t]

Once more I kept doubling them all the way to 6nx-8. Too bad it's matchpoints. https://www.bridgeba...15;%202%20Ace(s)%20-%20Forcing|mb|P|mb|5N!|an|6+!S;%20HCP%208-10;%20Blackwood,%20asks%20how%20many%20Kings%20-%20Forcing|mb|P|mb|6C!|an|4!H;%20HCP%2011-15;%200%20or%204%20King(s)%20-%20Non%20forcing|mb|D|an|HCP%2011-14;%20penalty|mb|6H|an|3!H;%206+!S;%20HCP%208-10;%20to%20play|mb|P|mb|P|mb|D|an|HCP%2011-14;%20penalty|mb|6N|an|3!H;%206+!S;%20HCP%2010;%20to%20play|mb|P|mb|P|mb|D|mb|P|mb|P|mb|P|pc|DA|pc|D5|pc|D2|pc|D7|pc|CJ|pc|CA|pc|C5|pc|C2|pc|C9|pc|CQ|pc|H3|pc|C3|pc|S4|pc|SK|pc|S5|pc|C4|pc|SA|pc|ST|pc|C7|pc|S7|pc|H6|pc|H7|pc|HA|pc|H8|pc|HQ|pc|HK|pc|H9|pc|D6|pc|CK|pc|S2|pc|CT|pc|C8|pc|C6|pc|S3|pc|D3|pc|H2|pc|D8|pc|D4|pc|D9|pc|H4|pc|DK|pc|H5|pc|DQ|pc|S6|pc|DT|pc|HT|pc|S9|pc|S8|pc|DJ|pc|HJ|pc|SQ|pc|SJ|

What's different this time is that both 4n and the follow ups indicated that 4n was blackwood so it doesn't seem like the robots had a misunderstanding.

[helene_t]

1c-1d
1h-2s
2n-3c
P

Passed a forcing bid. Also, 3c shows both minors so I am not sure how I can show just clubs.

[pescetom]

helene_t, on 2022-December-26, 01:59, said:

Once more I kept doubling them all the way to 6nx-8. Too bad it's matchpoints. https://www.bridgeba...15;%202%20Ace(s)%20-%20Forcing|mb|P|mb|5N!|an|6+!S;%20HCP%208-10;%20Blackwood,%20asks%20how%20many%20Kings%20-%20Forcing|mb|P|mb|6C!|an|4!H;%20HCP%2011-15;%200%20or%204%20King(s)%20-%20Non%20forcing|mb|D|an|HCP%2011-14;%20penalty|mb|6H|an|3!H;%206+!S;%20HCP%208-10;%20to%20play|mb|P|mb|P|mb|D|an|HCP%2011-14;%20penalty|mb|6N|an|3!H;%206+!S;%20HCP%2010;%20to%20play|mb|P|mb|P|mb|D|mb|P|mb|P|mb|P|pc|DA|pc|D5|pc|D2|pc|D7|pc|CJ|pc|CA|pc|C5|pc|C2|pc|C9|pc|CQ|pc|H3|pc|C3|pc|S4|pc|SK|pc|S5|pc|C4|pc|SA|pc|ST|pc|C7|pc|S7|pc|H6|pc|H7|pc|HA|pc|H8|pc|HQ|pc|HK|pc|H9|pc|D6|pc|CK|pc|S2|pc|CT|pc|C8|pc|C6|pc|S3|pc|D3|pc|H2|pc|D8|pc|D4|pc|D9|pc|H4|pc|DK|pc|H5|pc|DQ|pc|S6|pc|DT|pc|HT|pc|S9|pc|S8|pc|DJ|pc|HJ|pc|SQ|pc|SJ|

What's different this time is that both 4n and the follow ups indicated that 4n was blackwood so it doesn't seem like the robots had a misunderstanding.

Although the 4N indicates spades as trumps (but then the 4H shows... 4H, for that matter).
East's bidding is nonsense.

(Your link is fractured BTW)

[pescetom]

helene_t, on 2022-December-26, 02:14, said:

1c-1d
1h-2s
2n-3c
P

Passed a forcing bid. Also, 3c shows both minors so I am not sure how I can show just clubs.

Isn't the both minors thing just a cumulative explanation (you already showed diamonds) ?

[smerriman]

pescetom, on 2022-December-26, 03:23, said:

Isn't the both minors thing just a cumulative explanation (you already showed diamonds) ?

Diamonds were never shown; this is another issue with the 1♦ bid being described as 1+♦ (natural or clubs) but without any good followup to clarify.

[pescetom]

smerriman, on 2022-December-26, 04:29, said:

Diamonds were never shown; this is another issue with the 1♦ bid being described as 1+♦ (natural or clubs) but without any good followup to clarify.

Isn't the real agreement 'forcing, unlimited with diamonds or less than invitational with clubs' ?
If so then the 2S bid rules out clubs, and I don't see a great need for specific followups, except an understanding that 1C 1D 2D 3C is signoff.

[smerriman]

By real do you mean non-robot ACOL? I don't know about that. But with Argine the bid includes game forcing hands with clubs, since immediate 2♣ and 3♣ raises are both nonforcing. Even those are messed up though, with 2♣ 5-10 and 3♣ "8-10 invitational"?! And jumping to 3♣ over the 1♥ rebid shows 4-10

(Which means your sequence must be forcing, and is for Argine, though is also very buggy, with an example on the previous page.)

[pescetom]

smerriman, on 2022-December-26, 13:13, said:

By real do you mean non-robot ACOL? I don't know about that. But with Argine the bid includes game forcing hands with clubs, since immediate 2♣ and 3♣ raises are both nonforcing. Even those are messed up though, with 2♣ 5-10 and 3♣ "8-10 invitational"?! And jumping to 3♣ over the 1♥ rebid shows 4-10

(Which means your sequence must be forcing, and is for Argine, though is also very buggy, with an example on the previous page.)

No, I meant real as in correctly disclosed: there was talk here about inverted minors and I assumed that was why diamonds could be clubs, in a semi-natural way (retain the ability to compete with a clubs partial).
What you say makes sense now.

[hrothgar]

Silly question

How do I find the Acol Daylong?

[pescetom]

hrothgar, on 2022-December-27, 08:48, said:

Silly question

How do I find the Acol Daylong?

I think it's only available to English speaking countries, not US or Italy
Something like UK, Eire, Australia/NZ and Canada as I recall.

[smerriman]

Argine plays 2NT - 3♣ - 3NT as showing both 4 card majors (with 3♥ denying 4 spades and vice versa). While maybe playable, I don't think this is anything to do with Acol.

It's also funny how Blackwood is described as Blackwood "in a suit", given it's not keycard - and you can follow up with a queen ask, despite not being able to find out about the trump king!

I suspect both of these, and the broken 1♣ - 1♦ sequence, come from the way the FunBridge Argine lets you stitch together all sorts of conventions, rather than being purpose built for a specific system.

[pilowsky]

pescetom, on 2022-December-27, 11:05, said:

I think it's only available to English speaking countries, not US or Italy
Something like UK, Eire, Australia/NZ and Canada as I recall.

Yes - using Opera and changing to 'Americas' it doesn't appear - which I suppose means...

[diana_eva]

Two more Acol games are available as of this month:

A pay Acol Daylong, open to all, which appears in Competitive -> All tournaments and in Competitive - Daylongs. It's 8 boards, matchpoints not-best-hand, awards BBO points, and costs 0.42 BB$ to enter.

A new solitaire game in the Solitaire area in BBO, called Just Play Bridge Acol.

The Free Acol Daylong and the free Just Play Bridge Acol use a "lighter" version of argine, what we could call the equivalent of basic robots.

The pay Acol Daylong uses the "full" Argine, the advanced robots.

[helene_t]

smerriman, on 2022-December-27, 12:33, said:

Argine plays 2NT - 3♣ - 3NT as showing both 4 card majors (with 3♥ denying 4 spades and vice versa). While maybe playable, I don't think this is anything to do with Acol.

Indeed, it's because Argine's native language is SEF. There are a few leftovers from SEF in Argine Acol.
For example
1x-2y
2x
is forcing which is an unusual treatment in Acol.

[smerriman]

diana_eva, on 2022-December-28, 02:53, said:

The Free Acol Daylong and the free Just Play Bridge Acol use a "lighter" version of argine, what we could call the equivalent of basic robots.

The pay Acol Daylong uses the "full" Argine, the advanced robots.

Was the version we've been playing with during the initial trial, prior to these official announcements, the light or full one?

Are there any extra details of the difference? With GIB it's disabling sims during bidding, disabling GIBson, and reducing the number of sims; I would suspect Argine doesn't have the capability to disable the first two, so maybe it's just the last? But if it was the first, that would impact what bugs to report (since some wrong bids with free GIB aren't true bugs).

Will there be version numbers of Argine / a changelog like there was for GIB? Or any sense of progress as to previously reported bugs this time around?

Any updates on your plans for GIB too? (OK, I'm pushing my luck now, lol. I did have a dream a couple of nights ago that I met Uday about the robots..)

[pescetom]

diana_eva, on 2022-December-28, 02:53, said:

Two more Acol games are available as of this month:

A pay Acol Daylong, open to all, which appears in Competitive -> All tournaments and in Competitive - Daylongs. It's 8 boards, matchpoints not-best-hand, awards BBO points, and costs 0.42 BB$ to enter.

A new solitaire game in the Solitaire area in BBO, called Just Play Bridge Acol.

The Free Acol Daylong and the free Just Play Bridge Acol use a "lighter" version of argine, what we could call the equivalent of basic robots.

The pay Acol Daylong uses the "full" Argine, the advanced robots.

And they work in Italy, presumably also US

[pescetom]

smerriman, on 2022-December-28, 12:52, said:

Was the version we've been playing with during the initial trial, prior to these official announcements, the light or full one?

Are there any extra details of the difference? With GIB it's disabling sims during bidding, disabling GIBson, and reducing the number of sims; I would suspect Argine doesn't have the capability to disable the first two, so maybe it's just the last? But if it was the first, that would impact what bugs to report (since some wrong bids with free GIB aren't true bugs).

Will there be version numbers of Argine / a changelog like there was for GIB? Or any sense of progress as to previously reported bugs this time around?

Any updates on your plans for GIB too? (OK, I'm pushing my luck now, lol. I did have a dream a couple of nights ago that I met Uday about the robots..)

Will you also please lable the robots with their name and level ("Argine+", "Argine-", "GiB+", "GiB-") ?
This would reassure people that they are getting what they pay for and help in identifying and understanding limitations.

[thepossum]

Its interesting that both GiB and Argine have the same tendency to take a game force to mean slam is on without checking controls
Since when under any system does 2C followed by a an exchange of information and a game bid an invitation to jump to any slam
What I am talking about is no extra forcing. no extra encouragement. Just a natural progression to game. What do you have to do to discourage the immediate slam bid?
Just in case you all wonder the game bid said "to play"
A bid to game does not usually promise extras does it. Must be a different approach. Different meaning of "to play" perhaps
I accept the immediate slam bid also said to play but occasionally you need to try to escape to a less damaging slam so the play gets out of control very rapidly
I understand there are a few cases where jump to slam after game is appropriate but not regularly
Maybe its my interpretation of game force that is wrong

EDIT Maybe part of the problem is that a natural progression to game and a "to play" game bid magically gives you at least an extra Ace or two, which is brutally sad when you don't have them. Two keycards missing and a useful void in (the jumped to) trumps

[smerriman]

I guess the plan is to go the way of GIB and keep everything secret

Three more bugs, if they're still worth reporting:

---

Yet another forcing non-forcing situation, with the robots missing a simple game.

---

OK, so North's double is just 11+ points, and not 'takeout', so maybe I should have passed the double? But Argine went bonkers after that, probably trying to sign off in no trump three times.

---

And yet another 1♣ - 1♦ problem, with Argine showing 13+ HCP when holding only 8. Luckily, it then decided to let me make slam when it was never on.

Also, still experiencing the claiming issue I mentioned [not in this thread] early on, having claims rejected when I have all top tricks remaining.

[smerriman]

And then today's tournament, partner opens 1♥ and I have a 19 count. The bidding goes like this:

---

Thanks, Argine.

If the catch-phrase for GIB is 'every double is for takeout', I think Argine's is "every forcing bid is passable".

Full hand.