[DavidKok]

MPs, an early board in the session. Partner's 1♦ shows 5(+) diamonds or a 4441 with black suit singleton, approximately 11-23 (we stretch with shapely hands).

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Do you agree with the bidding thus far, and what is your plan from here?

Edit: I just noticed I mistakenly put both of these in the General Bridge Discussion forum, rather than the Interesting Bridge Hands forum. I'm sorry. Could a moderator move these to the proper spot for me?

[pescetom]

I'm ok with the bidding so far so long as partner can be trusted in control-bidding with Turbo... otherwise I would have just bid 4C over 2D as a Crosswood Kickback.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

I take it partners bidding showed 54 in the red suits, and also denied
3 spades.
3NT needs a club stopper, but if partner has the A or K in club we will have
also reasonable play in 6D, and he may not have a club stopper at all.
So I would bypass 3NT setting diamonds and showing slam interest, my guess is,
that this would be 4D.
The problem is, that over 4D partner wont have an easy bid, he wont have a heart
control, and he may not have a spade control, maybe he bids 5C before he signs
of in 5D, to show a club control and a suitable hand.
If he bids 5D direct, I will pass, ..., if I intend to bid 6D anyway, I would bid
it now.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[DavidKok]

pescetom, on 2023-May-09, 02:34, said:

I'm ok with the bidding so far so long as partner can be trusted in control-bidding with Turbo... otherwise I would have just bid 4C over 2D as a Crosswood Kickback.

We don't play Turbo or Crosswood/Kickback. 4♣ over 2♦ seems like an awful bid.

P_Marlowe, on 2023-May-09, 02:35, said:

I take it partners bidding showed 54 in the red suits, and also denied 3 spades.

Yes, exactly (but longer diamonds are possible).

P_Marlowe, on 2023-May-09, 02:35, said:

So I would bypass 3NT setting diamonds and showing slam interest, my guess is,
that this would be 4D.
The problem is, that over 4D partner wont have an easy bid, he wont have a heart
control, and he may not have a spade control, maybe he bids 5C before he signs
of in 5D, to show a club control and a suitable hand.

Indeed 4♦ would set trumps. Over this 4♥ would show a control, 4♠ would show the ace or king (we bypass shortage in partner's suit, even if we only promised 4), 4NT would be RKC 1430 and 5♣ would be Last Train, but on the auction this implies a club control.

[pescetom]

I think Marlowe is unnecessarily worried about controls over 4D: if he doesn't have a spade control or double clubs control then we are probably going nowhere anyway.

[pescetom]

DavidKok, on 2023-May-09, 02:41, said:

4♣ over 2♦ seems like an awful bid.

I knew you would say that
I agree on principle, but in practice it works well enough with a decent RKCB if that is the best partner can offer.

With a better partner I would hate to be without Turbo here.

[Cyberyeti]

pescetom, on 2023-May-09, 02:43, said:

I think Marlowe is unnecessarily worried about controls over 4D: if he doesn't have a spade control or double clubs control then we are probably going nowhere anyway.

Really ?

x, QJxx, Kxxxxx, Ax would seem to be plenty

[pescetom]

Cyberyeti, on 2023-May-09, 03:29, said:

Really ?

x, QJxx, Kxxxxx, Ax would seem to be plenty

That is a spade control.

[Cyberyeti]

pescetom, on 2023-May-09, 10:35, said:

That is a spade control.

Sorry, I read your comment as AND double clubs, but my point is he doesn't need much of a hand, and that one makes a grand. xx, QJxx, KQJxx, Ax is likely to be plenty for a small. He may well be unable to tell you he has a spade shortage depending on how the auction goes.

[mikeh]

pescetom, on 2023-May-09, 02:34, said:

I'm ok with the bidding so far so long as partner can be trusted in control-bidding with Turbo... otherwise I would have just bid 4C over 2D as a Crosswood Kickback.

Brilliant. Partner shows I keycard. Now what?

Yes, partner might show two keycards so that slam isn’t down off the top as they cash two or more clubs. How many diamonds does he have? Before you rush to say six, what should he bid over your 1S with Kx QJxx KQJxx Jx? If 1N,then ok…he should have 6+ diamonds and you don’t need the queen.

To me, the auction looks ok so far and now don’t I have the world’s easiest 4D call?

Now, to be fair, much depends on methods. If your partnership doesn’t know how to bid minor slams without keycard, so be it.

But for me, over 4D partner will do one of several things

4S shows a spade control and over that I bid 4N, NOT keycard….I show a hand with slam interest but no club control. Simple.

If he bids 5C, I bid 5H to see what he thinks about grand (picture x QJxx KQxxxx Ax…with xx in spades he won’t like it)

If he bids 5D, they can cash two clubs (hopefully he’s not void QJxx KQJxxx Qxx and they get a club ruff) and I’ll pass.

[pescetom]

mikeh, on 2023-May-09, 13:45, said:

Brilliant. Partner shows I keycard. Now what?

Yes, partner might show two keycards so that slam isn’t down off the top as they cash two or more clubs. How many diamonds does he have? Before you rush to say six, what should he bid over your 1S with Kx QJxx KQJxx Jx? If 1N,then ok…he should have 6+ diamonds and you don’t need the queen.

To me, the auction looks ok so far and now don’t I have the world’s easiest 4D call?

Now, to be fair, much depends on methods. If your partnership doesn’t know how to bid minor slams without keycard, so be it.

I assume you are replying to my "otherwise" worst case of bidding 4♣ Kickback over 2♦. If so, you are reading either selectively or distractedly - it was only for (the two) partners who can bid the Kickback but have no idea about control-bidding. This is the kind of compromise people playing in a small club have to make sometimes, if they want to play at all It's obvious that getting opener to show some shape and then control-bidding is a superior approach, nobody asserted otherwise.

Having said that, bidding such a low Kickback is crude and imperfect but far from hopeless, given the space available below 5♦. If partner shows 1 Keycard (must be ♦K) and then has ♦Q (as the auction suggests) then we will get to know about ♣K below game (and if he has ♠Kx plus ♣x then he might take a view). If he has a black void then he can show it. It's unlikely we will do anything worse than bid the small slam when a grand is possible or certain, which at MP with these HCP on the line may still be no real problem, especially if we play the cards better than others.

[DavidKok]

I chose to bid 4♦, setting trumps. The auction continued:

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At this stage I had 4NT RKC 1430, 5♣ undiscussed (it should have been last train, but had never come up and partner is a rapidly improving beginner), 5♦ signoff (partner will never pull - this strongly implies we don't have a heart control) and higher bids undiscussed but grand slam tries on the auction. 5♣ is the textbook bid, but I knew partner wouldn't understand, so I chose the amateur route with 4NT. On hearing 1 keycard it was no longer safe to bid 6 (that's what you get for inappropriately bidding RKC), and I signed off in 5♦, reasoning that 2♦ showed a minimum so there was likely to be a second flaw in partner's hand.

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The diamond queen dropped first round and partner collected an easy 12 tricks, for an 83% score (most of the field was in 3NT, going one off although some people failed to cash the first five rounds of clubs and saw 3NT make on the nose).
Other commenters pointed out that the choice to bid 4♦ depends on the followups. With my 'agreements' - opener shows controls, over which we have RKC but cannot realistically bid 5♣ (though 5♣ by partner would unambiguously have been last train), would you have bid differently?

[P_Marlowe]

If 5C is last train, than the auction would be good, at least for me.

[Cyberyeti]

What would 4♣ have been over 3♥ ? We would have a different auction with diamonds agreed before N bids 3♠ so 4♦ would deny a club control so 4♠ (or 4♥ kickback) would show one.

What NT are you playing and would partner have opened one if 2452 ? (or rebid 1N rather than 2♦ with that shape)

[DavidKok]

We play 14-16, partner would have opened 1NT with that shape only with values in the black suits (so usually not). The default rebid for us is 2♦.

4♣ over 3♥ would have been torturing partner, but should confirm hearts and be a club control (and says nothing about spade control). To be precise, the rebids after 3♥ are:

• 3♠ - 6(+) spades
  
• 3NT - to play (implies club values)
  
• 4♣ - club control confirming hearts
  
• 4♦ - slam try in diamonds
  
• 4♥ - to play
  
• 4♠ - to play, stronger than 4♠ on either of the previous rounds
  
• 4NT - quantitative
  
• 5♣ - does not exist
  
• 5♦ - to play, weaker than 4♦