[Lovera]

mycroft, on 2023-October-08, 11:51, said:

Thanks - will translate and see if there's anything else in there for me.

Pescetom is not quite right. I 100% am not sure which is which. It's just that I don't care. "The name of the convention is not full disclosure". I know how I play it; I discuss what we're playing with partner if we aren't on the same page; and if it matters, and the opponents use the convention name, I know to ask what it actually means. It's not that I couldn't find out if I wanted to. It's just that it literally does not matter to me - which was my point :-).

My issue with this entire topic (besides not understanding what you are trying to do. A clear topic statement at the beginning would have helped. Your explanation of what you were intending (to pescetom) still did not make sense to me. Are you detailing "Truscott as invented by Truscott"? "Differences between how it's played now and how it was designed 40 years ago"? "What is and is not Truscott - if you don't play it this way, don't call it that"? "...here's why this way is better"? "What GIB calls Truscott isn't Truscott, and here's why that's a problem"? "Here's what GIB actually plays, so you know how to handle it"?) is that nothing is played the way it was when it was invented. Frequently, the person who invented it did it suboptimally, and "everybody" plays it the clearer or more optimal way, even the inventor.

So, depending on what your point actually is, my comment might be explaining that others are playing Dormer not Truscott, and that's not "wrong", even if they call it Truscott; they might be playing Jordan (even if it's actually Truscott, or if it's what they think is Truscott, but isn't really); it might be showing why "explain what you play, it doesn't matter what it's called", or many other things. And it might be a totally unnecessary complication and poor thread drift. Like this one. If so, sorry; put it down to lack of understanding.

I have found three sources (indicated in #2 from a book of conventions, in #3 via Google and #6 from the Pattaya Bridge Club where the bidding development is explained and talks about 2NT Truscott) and I am giving some indications in this regard. However, if you know something different you can always let us know.

[Lovera]

mycroft, on 2023-October-08, 11:51, said:

Thanks - will translate and see if there's anything else in there for me.

Pescetom is not quite right. I 100% am not sure which is which. It's just that I don't care. "The name of the convention is not full disclosure". I know how I play it; I discuss what we're playing with partner if we aren't on the same page; and if it matters, and the opponents use the convention name, I know to ask what it actually means. It's not that I couldn't find out if I wanted to. It's just that it literally does not matter to me - which was my point :-).

My issue with this entire topic (besides not understanding what you are trying to do. A clear topic statement at the beginning would have helped. Your explanation of what you were intending (to pescetom) still did not make sense to me. Are you detailing "Truscott as invented by Truscott"? "Differences between how it's played now and how it was designed 40 years ago"? "What is and is not Truscott - if you don't play it this way, don't call it that"? "...here's why this way is better"? "What GIB calls Truscott isn't Truscott, and here's why that's a problem"? "Here's what GIB actually plays, so you know how to handle it"?) is that nothing is played the way it was when it was invented. Frequently, the person who invented it did it suboptimally, and "everybody" plays it the clearer or more optimal way, even the inventor.

So, depending on what your point actually is, my comment might be explaining that others are playing Dormer not Truscott, and that's not "wrong", even if they call it Truscott; they might be playing Jordan (even if it's actually Truscott, or if it's what they think is Truscott, but isn't really); it might be showing why "explain what you play, it doesn't matter what it's called", or many other things. And it might be a totally unnecessary complication and poor thread drift. Like this one. If so, sorry; put it down to lack of understanding.

My answer is (as you told):"What is and is not Truscott - if you don't play it this way, don't call it that"? "...here's why this way is better".

[Lovera]

Previously we talked about the preventive/barrage aspect and more or less aggressive bids also considering the suggestion on the raise bid at level 2. Let's see what to do when we have more total points (11 when the opening is overcalled, 12 when it is doubled and 13 when partner has intervened and you are the 2NT/cuebidder in fourth position. This eventuality is explained at the end of page 4 (in SCRIBD - see # 3) where there are two cue bids available and using the opener's one (plus economy) you report 3 raise cards while with the other 4. Adding a specification also for the points we can say that: with 3 raise cards and 3 high cards (=A/K/Q) or with 4 raise cards and 2 high cards you have to use the cue and in the other cases will bid in 2NT.In similar way with the 2NT bid, you explain that: with three raise cards and 4 high cards or with four raise cards and 3 high cards you bid 2NT.It is with this combination between length and points(=A,K,Q) and bidding so that you inform your partner of the difference in force.

[Lovera]

Being interested in what I believe is a fairly structured and fruitful discussion, I invite you to participate in order to have further additions in this regard.
I now make a digression by presenting a hand that confirms what is detailed (in SCRIBD) under the heading "Possession of the Board" on pag. 6:(1961 European Championship in Torquay, France-Ireland match) in S Christiane Martin in N De Temmerman, the bid went S1♥ W1♠ N3♥(= instead you can say 2NT with 3 high cards and four support cards) E3♠,p p 4♥ p,p 4♠ X p,5♥ All pass. Martin in South had ♠7♥AJ942♦KQ♣87532, while North ♠63♥K1086♦A1043♣A106 and a hand of 13 total points considering the surplus for the K trumps.

[Lovera]

I renew the invitation to express your point of view on the topic discussed and provide another site that integrates what has been said so far: https://www.bridgebu.../jordan_2nt.php

[DavidKok]

I'm sorry, I do not have anything to contribute on the discussion of what the name of the convention should imply (which range and which auctions are included or excluded, for example). Personally I've got other systems I prefer over 1M-(X)-? and 1m-(1Y)-?, which allocate the 2NT response to some different hand types (as far as I can tell). It is unclear to me whether you wish to promote discussion on possible uses of 2NT on these auctions, or on the historical origins of treating this as a specific strength raise of partner's suit, or something else.

[Lovera]

DavidKok, on 2023-October-18, 12:32, said:

I'm sorry, I do not have anything to contribute on the discussion of what the name of the convention should imply (which range and which auctions are included or excluded, for example). Personally I've got other systems I prefer over 1M-(X)-? and 1m-(1Y)-?, which allocate the 2NT response to some different hand types (as far as I can tell). It is unclear to me whether you wish to promote discussion on possible uses of 2NT on these auctions, or on the historical origins of treating this as a specific strength raise of partner's suit, or something else.

As I said in #3 the non-standard part developed in SCRIBD about the Truscott Convention with interferences (bit the X bidding) combined with the standard formulation well illustrated in #6 (when RHO Doubles) opens up all the bidding possibilities for the contested auction which therefore already comes studied (divided between preventive and non-preventive bids) and I believe this is very useful.

[pescetom]

Lovera, on 2023-October-18, 12:15, said:

I renew the invitation to express your point of view on the topic discussed and provide another site that integrates what has been said so far: https://www.bridgebu.../jordan_2nt.php

I dislike the suggestion of the bridgebum site that 1♥-2NT; 3♠ should be natural and game forcing: I prefer it to be a control-bid instead.


I cannot comment on the scribd article and your related discussion, as the link you supplied does not work (perhaps because scribd is by subscription only).

[smerriman]

When the opponents double our 1M opening, we have 0 need for a natural 2NT, so we can use it to show a raise of the major and free up 3M for something weaker.

To me that is the start and end of this convention so there is nothing else to add.

Apologies if this sounds harsh but I've read the whole thread about three times and still don't have any idea what we're meant to be discussing or why it took you 19 separate posts to get there.

[Lovera]

smerriman, on 2023-October-18, 13:08, said:

When the opponents double our 1M opening, we have 0 need for a natural 2NT, so we can use it to show a raise of the major and free up 3M for something weaker.

To me that is the start and end of this convention so there is nothing else to add.

Apologies if this sounds harsh but I've read the whole thread about three times and still don't have any idea what we're meant to be discussing or why it took you 19 separate posts to get there.

This convention is currently used by GIB apparently only in the standard formulation (and perhaps also in the "Inverted Jordan" one I think) but not in the non-standard one as it should be done given its usefulness. Furthermore, I have explained the composition of the points and supports which is easy to remember (as well as to apply) and I hope that this will be considered soon.

[Gilithin]

Lovera, on 2023-October-04, 08:59, said:

I do not think so. The second part in #12 is my suggestion of a more general nature.

This more or less sums up why your threads are simply not worth bothering with. You love to suggest and never ask. And frankly 90% of what you suggest is just rubbish. The simple truth is that every single post from mikeh is worth massively more than the 1674 you have contributed here. You are simply not qualified to teach us. I don't know whether you are a victim of the Dunning-Kruger effect or just a generic Know-It-All Troll but either way, I will continue to assess your threads as worthless unless you somehow start contributing something more than you have in the past. Sorry, but this is just the truth and I think it is really about time someone told it to you.

[smerriman]

Lovera, on 2023-October-18, 13:52, said:

This convention is currently used by GIB apparently only in the standard formulation (and perhaps also in the "Inverted Jordan" one I think) but not in the non-standard one as it should be done given its usefulness. Furthermore, I have explained the composition of the points and supports which is easy to remember (as well as to apply) and I hope that this will be considered soon.

I still can't decipher what you are talking about by 'the non-standard one', or followed your explanations, but if the entire purpose of this thread was:

"I would like GIB to play x, is that possible?"

then:

a) it should be in the GIB forum
b) saying that much more concisely in a single post would have been clearer
c) the answer is no, it is not possible; GIB is no longer developed.

[Lovera]

smerriman, on 2023-October-18, 16:21, said:

I still can't decipher what you are talking about by 'the non-standard one', or followed your explanations, but if the entire purpose of this thread was:

"I would like GIB to play x, is that possible?"

then:

a) it should be in the GIB forum
b) saying that much more concisely in a single post would have been clearer
c) the answer is no, it is not possible; GIB is no longer developed.

I had taken into account the fact that there is no development of GIB in this regard but I'm still sorry if it wasn't possible. In this regard, this term is mentioned on the pattayabridgeclub website, reported for convenience if you haven't noticed: "It is possible to play Truscott 2NT after an overcall, but that is by no means standard and would have to be agreed". Therefore it is still possible to bid preempting but the bid of 2NT is only an invitation to 3NT and in the case of a minimum hand on the part of GIB (possibly at the table) there is the possibility that the bid will not reach you if everyone passes (i.e. 1♠-(2♦),2NT) while in the case of the defender's overcall you would still have the possibility to take action. On the other hand, if the bid is closed with 3NT you can consider correcting it by bidding 4 in the opening suit. As regards the many posts, sometimes it is necessary to proceed in stages in a discussion in order to gain greater understanding with relative lengthening of time.

[Lovera]

pescetom, on 2023-October-18, 12:56, said:

I dislike the suggestion of the bridgebum site that 1♥-2NT; 3♠ should be natural and game forcing: I prefer it to be a control-bid instead.


I cannot comment on the scribd article and your related discussion, as the link you supplied does not work (perhaps because scribd is by subscription only).

How come it doesn't work. Indeed I can see it in the Chrome browser but not in Firefox or the Internet but I think others see it since no one said anything.
I can anyhow to indicate the link:
https://it.scribd.co...Truscott-bridge
(Copy in the note):https://it.scribd.com/doc/294575970/Convenzione-Truscott-bridge
Via Google in the search box:Convenzione Truscott Bridge an then you have to find SCRIBD

[pescetom]

Lovera, on 2023-October-19, 09:34, said:

How come it doesn't work. Indeed I can see it in the Chrome browser but not in Firefox or the Internet but I think others see it since no one said anything.
I can anyhow to indicate the link:
https://it.scribd.co...Truscott-bridge
(Copy in the note):https://it.scribd.com/doc/294575970/Convenzione-Truscott-bridge
Via Google in the search box:Convenzione Truscott Bridge an then you have to find SCRIBD

Yes Google search box will find this and other bridge articles but they all result in:

Quote

This site can’t be reached
www.scribd.com refused to connect.
Try:

Checking the connection
Checking the proxy and the firewall
ERR_CONNECTION_REFUSED

No idea what happens for others (but I would bet the same, if I had a soccer player's salary).
I do not have a scribd account (not free) and have no interest in creating one, even temporarily.
Browser Chrome although I doubt that is relevant.

[smerriman]

Lovera, on 2023-October-19, 03:28, said:

As regards the many posts, sometimes it is necessary to proceed in stages in a discussion in order to gain greater understanding with relative lengthening of time.

Sometimes, yes; I can assure you that in this case, the opposite is true, as you can tell from the fact that every responder to this thread has said they don't understand what you're looking for.

pescetom, on 2023-October-19, 12:55, said:

No idea what happens for others (but I would bet the same, if I had a soccer player's salary).

I've seen reports that scribd is blocked in Italy. Site loads elsewhere, though you still need to pay to read the actual PDF, which I therefore haven't done either.

[Lovera]

I try it:https://it.scribd.co...Truscott-bridge
and, please, tell me if you are able to read/watch.
Let you see also:Convenzione Truscott Bridge | PDF - Scribd https://it.scribd.co...Truscott-bridge

When I tried now to activate the internal translation on the site I previously saw (from IT for Italian to English) the message (see #35 Quote ..) you are reporting is appeared. For this I had previously used and recommend in the future to go via the menu with the three dots superimposed at the top right externally to obtain the translation. From my wife's mobile phone (whom also has no account) the site is visible. This is for knowledge of things. The whole discussion moves between SCRIBD and the pattayabridgeclub website.
How can we resolve ?

https://vdocuments.m...dge.html?page=2
This one seems to make able to read, please confirm there are no problems.

[pescetom]

Lovera, on 2023-October-21, 02:00, said:

I try it:https://it.scribd.co...Truscott-bridge
and, please, tell me if you are able to read/watch.
Let you see also:Convenzione Truscott Bridge | PDF - Scribd https://it.scribd.co...Truscott-bridge

When I tried now to activate the internal translation on the site I previously saw (from IT for Italian to English) the message (see #35 Quote ..) you are reporting is appeared. For this I had previously used and recommend in the future to go via the menu with the three dots superimposed at the top right externally to obtain the translation. From my wife's mobile phone (whom also has no account) the site is visible. This is for knowledge of things. The whole discussion moves between SCRIBD and the pattayabridgeclub website.
How can we resolve ?

https://vdocuments.m...dge.html?page=2
This one seems to make able to read, please confirm there are no problems.

I can read the last one with no problems, but the scribd links fail both on phone and PC. I don't have translation of Italian configured but do have English as main language. I tried on an Italian friend's phone and the links worked, so maybe it's a language induced problem.

Is the Bucciarello document similar or identical to the scribd one?

It makes sense, although I don't particularly like the proposal that when responding to a 1M opening after interference, the distinction between 2NT and Cue is about strength not length.

[Lovera]

pescetom, on 2023-October-21, 06:50, said:

I can read the last one with no problems, but the scribd links fail both on phone and PC. I don't have translation of Italian configured but do have English as main language. I tried on an Italian friend's phone and the links worked, so maybe it's a language induced problem.

Is the Bucciarello document similar or identical to the scribd one?

It makes sense, although I don't particularly like the proposal that when responding to a 1M opening after interference, the distinction between 2NT and Cue is about strength not length.

Always use the three dots near the Google search box high on the right for eventual translation in other language.This one is the same that i could see. Once i used the internal and..all was over then.

[pescetom]

Lovera, on 2023-October-21, 10:29, said:

Always use the three dots near the Google search box high on the right for eventual translation in other language.This one is the same that i could see. Once i used the internal and..all was over then.

It wasn't that, as I guessed the language (probably combined with an Italian IP address) is the issue. If I configure Italian only it works, if I configure English (UK) or English (US) it doesn't.