[phoenixmj]

In an auction, my partner was in first seat and passed. His left hand opponent opened the bidding 1 heart. I overcalled 2D showing a minimum of 5 diamonds (likely 6) and likely at least 11 points. My left hand opponent passed. My partner then bid 2 spades.

Since my partner had passed the first go, I took him for 5 spades and close to an opener. Since he had limited his hand by passing, and I had 3 spades, I passed knowing that we did not have a game but we had a fit in spades.

My partner thought he only needed 4 spades, and also thought his new suit was forcing because he was advancer.

When I googled, it says that a new suit at the two level by advancer is forcing one round - but it does not address whether the advancer is a passed hand.

My questions:
1. If advancer is a passed hand, is a new suit by advancer forcing either at the one level or at the two level?

2. Does advancer need a five card suit to bid a new suit at the two level?

3. Does advancer need a five card suit to bid a new suit at the one level?

I thought that once one of us had made a bit that limited our hand, it was not forcing.

Thanks in advance.

Note - I just found another article that says that advancer's new suit bid in never forcing - which surprises me. The argument is that there is competitive bidding and also that the overcaller limited their hand by not doubling first. But this confuses me because the advancer has not really limited their hand. So, curious about this as well.

Thanks.

[DavidKok]

• Generally all natural bids by passed hands are not forcing. The initial pass limits your hand, and partner will almost always have a better idea of the combined partnership assets than the passed hand does. If they judge it right to drop the auction at a low level it almost always is. The main exception are artificial bids, for example a splinter bid or Drury response - these may still technically be not forcing as the hand is limited, but I doubt it is winning to pass them.
  
• Yes, you need a five card suit to introduce a new suit after partner's overcall. Not just at the 2-level, but at any level. Your 2♦ overcall practically denies five spades, and playing you for exactly four is a poor idea. Too often you'll have a shorter suit and partner will have taken you out of the frying pan and into the fire by running from diamonds. Incidentally some people play artificial treatments to show the hand with a four card major and a longer minor to help recover these fits (notably, equal level conversion or Raptor 1NT overcalls).
  
• Ditto.

Lastly the customs on which of these calls are forcing or not by an unpassed hand also vary quite a bit. I've played multiple different styles and have my own preferences, but more important than that is to be aware that different partnerships have different agreements here and you should find one that suits your style.

[phoenixmj]

DavidKok, on 2024-January-18, 08:17, said:

• Generally all natural bids by passed hands are not forcing. The initial pass limits your hand, and partner will almost always have a better idea of the combined partnership assets than the passed hand does. If they judge it right to drop the auction at a low level it almost always is. The main exception are artificial bids, for example a splinter bid or Drury response - these may still technically be not forcing as the hand is limited, but I doubt it is winning to pass them.
  
• Yes, you need a five card suit to introduce a new suit after partner's overcall. Not just at the 2-level, but at any level. Your 2♦ overcall practically denies five spades, and playing you for exactly four is a poor idea. Too often you'll have a shorter suit and partner will have taken you out of the frying pan and into the fire by running from diamonds. Incidentally some people play artificial treatments to show the hand with a four card major and a longer minor to help recover these fits (notably, equal level conversion or Raptor 1NT overcalls).
  
• Ditto.

Lastly the customs on which of these calls are forcing or not by an unpassed hand also vary quite a bit. I've played multiple different styles and have my own preferences, but more important than that is to be aware that different partnerships have different agreements here and you should find one that suits your style.

Thanks so much.

Curious - If the bidding had been 1c, and I overcalled a diamond - I could have 5 diamonds and 4 spades. So if my partner (passed or unpassed hand) had 4 spades, should he not show the spades if he has enough points to bid?

I just looked up Raptor 1N - I had not heard of this before. Seems like a good bid as I hate 1N overcalls showing 15-17 points and balanced. But in the absence of this bid, seems like the 1D overcall could have 4 spades.

Thanks again.

[phoenixmj]

phoenixmj, on 2024-January-18, 08:47, said:

Thanks so much.

Curious - If the bidding had been 1c, and I overcalled a diamond - I could have 5 diamonds and 4 spades. So if my partner (passed or unpassed hand) had 4 spades, should he not show the spades if he has enough points to bid?

I just looked up Raptor 1N - I had not heard of this before. Seems like a good bid as I hate 1N overcalls showing 15-17 points and balanced. But in the absence of this bid, seems like the 1D overcall could have 4 spades.

Thanks again.

Sorry - one more follow up question - is an equal level conversion double alertable? Thanks

[DavidKok]

phoenixmj, on 2024-January-18, 08:47, said:

Thanks so much.

Curious - If the bidding had been 1c, and I overcalled a diamond - I could have 5 diamonds and 4 spades. So if my partner (passed or unpassed hand) had 4 spades, should he not show the spades if he has enough points to bid?

I just looked up Raptor 1N - I had not heard of this before. Seems like a good bid as I hate 1N overcalls showing 15-17 points and balanced. But in the absence of this bid, seems like the 1D overcall could have 4 spades.

Thanks again.

On the auction (1♣)-1♦-(P)-1♠; (P)-? there is a bit of a problem for overcaller. Almost all of the time you won't have four spades - you never have five, and would have made a takeout double with 4=3 in the majors along with the diamonds. So by allowing 1♠ on four you are catering to holding something like 4♠, 0-2♥, 5(+)♦ (note that advancer also denied as many as four hearts if 1♠ is bid on four, so the opponents have a guaranteed heart fit in this scenario yet aren't bidding them or making negative doubles). Most of the time overcaller won't have this hand and will struggle quite a bit with a rebid, and in practice I expect you will have to rebid 2♦ on a wide range of hands. After all 1NT would show values and a club stopper and 2♥ would be a reverse, a strange bid on the auction.
So even though you might miss a 4-4 spade fit, I think it is much more practical to have the 1♠ response ask for three-card support, i.e. almost always show 5(+). If you wish to bid this way with a hand with only four cards you could consider that, but most of those hands have good other options as well (i.e. raise the diamonds or bid 1NT, relying on opener to bid again with 4 spades and extra values).

phoenixmj, on 2024-January-18, 09:02, said:

Sorry - one more follow up question - is an equal level conversion double alertable? Thanks

I don't know, I think this may depend on jurisdiction at any rate. Quite a few bridge organisations have special rules about alerting doubles. Personally I would probably alert it, though most of the time the double will be a regular old takeout hand rather than the ELC-type hand so this might be considered excessive or even misleading.

[mw64ahw]

phoenixmj, on 2024-January-18, 08:47, said:

Thanks so much.

Curious - If the bidding had been 1c, and I overcalled a diamond - I could have 5 diamonds and 4 spades. So if my partner (passed or unpassed hand) had 4 spades, should he not show the spades if he has enough points to bid?

I just looked up Raptor 1N - I had not heard of this before. Seems like a good bid as I hate 1N overcalls showing 15-17 points and balanced. But in the absence of this bid, seems like the 1D overcall could have 4 spades.

Thanks again.

I play 2-suited jump/cue overalls so over 1♣ for example
2♣ 5♦4+♠
2♦ 5♦4+♥
2♥ 5♥4+♠
C.f. The Overcall Structure

[mikeh]

phoenixmj, on 2024-January-18, 08:47, said:

Thanks so much.

Curious - If the bidding had been 1c, and I overcalled a diamond - I could have 5 diamonds and 4 spades. So if my partner (passed or unpassed hand) had 4 spades, should he not show the spades if he has enough points to bid?

I just looked up Raptor 1N - I had not heard of this before. Seems like a good bid as I hate 1N overcalls showing 15-17 points and balanced. But in the absence of this bid, seems like the 1D overcall could have 4 spades.

Thanks again.

Raptor seems effective when it comes up…I’ve had opps use it a few times but it’s unpopular, at least in NA and, imo, for good reason.

Every convention has pluses and minuses. Giving up the natural, strong notrump overcall is a heavy price…I think you are very much in a minority in your dislike of the bid.

If you can’t overcall 1N with a good, balanced hand, what are your alternatives?

Say you pick up Kx Axxx KQx KQxx and RHO opens 1D.

1N seems like a perfect description, if it shows a strong notrump. But if it’s raptor, what do you do?

Pass could work but no winning bridge player passes these hands.

1H gets you into the auction but the suit is short and weak…overcalling on say AK109 is ok (subject to what the hand looks like) or Axxxx is fine, but not Axxx.

So double?

Then what?

Partner may overcompete in spades, expecting more spades from your hand. Of course, knowing you have to double with these hands may cause him to NOT compete in spades….but maybe your double was on Axxx Kx KQx KQxx, lol.

And if he does bid, what do you do next?

Does double and then notrump show a strong notrump? Bear in mind that you’ll often have to double then bid 2N opposite a bust. Say RHO opens 1S and you hold KQx AJxx Kx Kxxx. You have to double, partner bids 2D and now what?

Plus once in a while you hold a 20 count….non raptor players double then bid the cheapest notrump to show a hand too strong for a direct 1N. Raptor players have to jump.

As for the rest of your questions, I agree with David. I would add that I’ve seen some experts suggest that a 1S advance of a 1 level overcall could be on as few as 4….these were comments in The Bridge World’s MasterSolvers feature and, iirc, those who voted, on such a hand, for 1S stated that they’d expect partner to assume a 5 card suit, but they felt that 1S was the least bad option on that hand.

Edit: I should add that I’ve only ever encountered raptor being used over a 1M opening…it shows 4 in the other major and a longer minor…over a minor opening, there is no ‘other’ major and, I suspect, the bid doesn’t work very well when advancer has to guess which major overcaller holds. So raptor, if that’s the normal way to play it, doesn’t help with your OP situation.

[P_Marlowe]

#1 no
#2 yes
#3 agreement depend, I prefer 5, but it is not uncommon to have only 4, a typical auction is

(1C) - 1H - (Pass) - 1S

If you agreed to such a style, 1S is forcing for 1 round.

[fuzzyquack]

What would you bid as a passed hand with something like KQxx, xxx, Jx, AJTx? Of course, 2♠ by passed hand can't be forcing but you need to have a way to advance on good passed hands given 2♦ may contain some pretty good hands.

[DavidKok]

I'd open that hand. If you do not you might get stuck on example auctions like P-(1♥)-2♦-(P); ?. If it is not your style to open these I still recommend not throwing partner under the bus with a four card 2♠ bid here, and I'd rather choose between 2♥ and 3♦. You almost always hold at least one and often several of the following: a five card suit in either unbid suit, three card support for partner, a hand weak enough that pass is fine, a heart stopper, or an opening. You can construct hands that meet none of these conditions, but it's not wise to build your bidding system around them.

[Douglas43]

I don't use ELC, but I don't think that the double is alertable in EBU. I would want an alert of the non-strong new suit bid because of unusual strength range