[jillybean]

---

I was taught that I must not open 1nt with 2 doubletons and it seems that many players are still taught this.
I understand the logic behind teaching newer players these "rules" but I wish the teachers would say at every lesson,
what I am teaching you is to get you started in the game, these rules are not written in stone and you will learn new methods as you progress in the game.

Inevitably, what happens when the hand is opened 1♦, after hearing 1♥ or 1♠ from partner, opener is stuck for a rebid.
1nt is an underbid - 2nt is an overbid.

So, what can we do?

[DavidKok]

There are many solutions. Here are a few:

• Playing standard, rebid 3♦ (15-17).
  
• Playing unbalanced diamond, rebid 2♣ (transfer to diamonds, unlimited).
  
• Playing unbalanced diamond, rebid 1NT (Gazzilli).
  
• Playing standard, jump shift into 3♣ 'fake jump shift'.

I have my opinions on all of the above, but I don't think you are locked into rebidding some amount of notrump. If you wish to treat this as a balanced hand you should probably treat it as a 19-count or 18-count, which I suspect does not fall in your notrump opening range. Rebidding 2NT is not an overbid.
I do not agree with the implication that failing to open 1NT is poor, or specifically due to bridge teachers if so.

[jdiana]

I would also open this hand 1♦ and see what response I get from partner. There are lots of ways it could go. If I get a 1M response, I agree with David - I would add a length point and rebid 2NT.

This article from Robert Todd might be of interest - https://static1.squa...pening+Bids.pdf

Example 6 comes closest, although your diamonds are not nearly as good.

[smerriman]

Rebidding 2nt is closer to an underbid than an overbid.

[Cyberyeti]

This is why I like what I play, I open 1♦, Bid 1N over 1M (15-bad 19) and if we have game on, partner will bid again.

[mw64ahw]

I've steadfastly stuck to the no dual doubletons rule and my standard would be 1♦-?-3♦, but some will play 1NT 15-17 and after 2♣:
3♣ SB 6♣
3♦ SB 6♦
3♥ 2245
3♠ 2254
After all you'll often look to play in NT with the long minor. In the above hand you have multiple entries to make the extra ♦s work.

I find that partner will often bid 2NT with a semi-balanced hand so why not 1NT. This approach caused us to tweak our 5-card Major Stayman so that now.
2NT-3♣ 5cM?
3♦ no 5cM
3♥ 3♥2♠ or 2♥2♠ partner with 5♥5♠ bids 3♠
3♠ 5♠
3N 5♥

[Cyberyeti]

 mw64ahw, on 2024-March-22, 14:51, said:

I've steadfastly stuck to the no dual doubletons rule and my standard would be 1♦-?-3♦, but some will play 1NT 15-17 and after 2♣:
3♣ SB 6♣
3♦ SB 6♦
3♥ 2245
3♠ 2254
After all you'll often look to play in NT with the long minor. In the above hand you have multiple entries to make the extra ♦s work.

I find that partner will often bid 2NT with a semi-balanced hand so why not 1NT. This approach caused us to tweak our 5-card Major Stayman so that now.
2NT-3♣ 5cM?
3♦ no 5cM
3♥ 3♥2♠ or 2♥2♠ partner with 5♥5♠ bids 3♠
3♠ 5♠
3N 5♥

If you evaluate this as 15-17 you have bigger problems, this is worth 18 or 19 easily, there are many many flat 7 counts that make game opposite this, indeed something as bad as Qxxx, Jx, Kxx, 108xx is plenty and you might still miss game after a 2N rebid. You also don't seem to bid 2♣ on a zero count with these responses, that's a big loss.

[mw64ahw]

Cyberyeti, on 2024-March-22, 16:49, said:

If you evaluate this as 15-17 you have bigger problems, this is worth 18 or 19 easily, there are many many flat 7 counts that make game opposite this, indeed something as bad as Qxxx, Jx, Kxx, 108xx is plenty and you might still miss game after a 2N rebid. You also don't seem to bid 2♣ on a zero count with these responses, that's a big loss.

Does 1♣-1R-1N work better.

[johnu]

jillybean, on 2024-March-22, 11:22, said:

Inevitably, what happens when the hand is opened 1♦, after hearing 1♥ or 1♠ from partner, opener is stuck for a rebid.
1nt is an underbid - 2nt is an overbid.

Is a 2NT rebid an overbid???

If partner has as little as ♦Kx with enough of a smattering to respond in your system, you are the favorite to make on a spade lead. I would expect most experts to upgrade by (at least) a point on a hand super heavy on aces and kings, with a 6 card suit headed by 2 of the top 3 honors.

[jillybean]

Please note in which forum the hand is posted. This hand type appears frequently as problem hand for newer players.
Many won't open 1nt because it has 2 doubletons, they won't rebid 2nt because it has 2 doubles and is "only" 17hcp.

The recommended action of rebidding 3m often causes problems for partner, unable to bid 3nt and left with either raise to 4m or a pass.

The key is hand evaluation, solid values, Aces and a King (undervalued in the traditional 4321 method) and rebidding 2nt with 2 doubletons is OK,
some players routinely open 1nt with 2 doubletons.

I'd be happy if partner opened this 1nt

[smerriman]

It might have been better taking away 2 HCP in the original hand and then posing the question, rather than implying to N/B reading the forum that 2NT is an overbid or 1NT is reasonable with this hand, since both of those are pretty wrong.

But with 2 HCP less, it's a good question for those who don't like to open 1NT to be asking.

I think it's OK to teach beginners 1NT means not having two doubletons, and to rebid 2m or 3m with a 6 card suit as a starting point - it's really only by having that shape come up again and again do you learn when it works out badly, and when it looks more like a no-trump hand.

[mw64ahw]

A discussion https://www.advinbri...k-in-bridge/418

[jillybean]

smerriman, on 2024-March-22, 22:36, said:

It might have been better taking away 2 HCP in the original hand and then posing the question, rather than implying to N/B reading the forum that 2NT is an overbid or 1NT is reasonable with this hand, since both of those are pretty wrong.

But with 2 HCP less, it's a good question for those who don't like to open 1NT to be asking.

I think it's OK to teach beginners 1NT means not having two doubletons, and to rebid 2m or 3m with a 6 card suit as a starting point - it's really only by having that shape come up again and again do you learn when it works out badly, and when it looks more like a no-trump hand.

Yes, a 15 count would be good - this was the latest hand to come up.

I agree teaching beginners that 1nt means not having two doubletons is a good start. Alas, some carry that "rule" over to all nt bids, along with other dubious "rules" perhaps picked up rather than 'taught'.
What I don't agree with is when the impression given is that this is a Law! You must not open (bid) with (insert rule).

Todd's website is a great resource
Adventures In Bridge

[DavidKok]

My opinion is close to the opposite. On any particular hand it might be good to open 1NT despite a semibalanced shape, but my requirements for that are higher than those of most other players. I've previously recommended learning better methods over the 1m opening to benefit from both the balanced 1NT and the 1m opening system.
(Too) many opening hands are balanced. Diluting that comes with a cost. It's a long and boring discussion on which side of the divide any particular hand should land, and obviously if you treat any advice as an immovable rule you'll be all the worse for it, but I think including more semibal hands in 1NT is on balance a losing action.

[mw64ahw]

DavidKok, on 2024-March-23, 02:43, said:

My opinion is close to the opposite. On any particular hand it might be good to open 1NT despite a semibalanced shape, but my requirements for that are higher than those of most other players. I've previously recommended learning better methods over the 1m opening to benefit from both the balanced 1NT and the 1m opening system.
(Too) many opening hands are balanced. Diluting that comes with a cost. It's a long and boring discussion on which side of the divide any particular hand should land, and obviously if you treat any advice as an immovable rule you'll be all the worse for it, but I think including more semibal hands in 1NT is on balance a losing action.

A tricky hypothesis to prove if you factor in the more limitted ability of ops to compete in a Major. Would you take the same view over a Strong ♣ approach?

[DavidKok]

Yes. Having a solid notrump ladder is a really important aspect of bidding systems, and while it is not a good idea to try to keep it 100% pure (some semibalanced hands are best opened 1NT, in my opinion) I do think this is important to pay attention to. Opening 1NT with semibal loses not just if it backfires on this example hand, but also on future hands where you struggle with plain balanced hands as you can't show them as accurately. Partner's hand evaluation is very different facing a balanced and a semibalanced hand, especially if you do not have good support for their suit.

In addition to the above this example hand is too strong for a 1NT (15-17) even if you do permit many semibalanced hands, and also I am fond of 14-16 anyway. Furthermore this hand rates to do quite well over a strong 1♣ opening. Personally I consider the Precision tendency to put a lot of 5422 and possibly 6m322 or even less balanced ('suitable' 5431?) in 1NT a noticeable systemic weakness, only justified in context because the nebulous 1♦ is even worse. But strong club systems without these flaws exist, and I prefer them.

[jdiana]

jillybean, on 2024-March-22, 22:27, said:

I'd be happy if partner opened this 1nt

Even if you have 6 or 7 points and a 4-card major? It seems like you're presupposing what responder's hand will be.

(I agree with you about opener's same-suit rebids. They can make life difficult by, among other things, short circuiting some of our usual tools like NMF/checkback and 4th suit forcing.)

[jillybean]

jdiana, on 2024-March-23, 08:42, said:

Even if you have 6 or 7 points and a 4-card major? It seems like you're presupposing what responder's hand will be.

(I agree with you about opener's same-suit rebids. They can make life difficult by, among other things, short circuiting some of our usual tools like NMF/checkback and 4th suit forcing.)

Yes, remember we are playing with beginning players. If they open this hand 1D and get any interference I think their next bid may be 2D.

---

[jillybean]

What is your style here? (playing std, no txfer over 1C etc)
Open 1nt and rebid 3♣ over a 2♥ bid by East?
Open 1♣ and repeat clubs?
Something more intelligent?

---

[DavidKok]

Open 1NT, pass if the opponents interfere and we are not invited to act by partner.