[Ranmit]

2/1 system, MPs.


The bidding is as given. Partner's 2♣ bid shows 6+ clubs, ~12-15 HCP, <3 hearts. You feel game should be on (even an outside chance for slam), but which one? 3NT / 4H / 5c are all candidates (it is MPs). What do you bid?

Basically, is the jump 3♥ here GF or invitational? And how should partner respond with a 3-1-3-6 distribution and no spade stopper?

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[jillybean]

3♥ is invitational 6+ hearts, with this hand I need to create a game force.
2♠ does this and begins to show my length in hearts. I plan to bid 3♥ next to show the 6th heart.

[Ranmit]

But isn't 2♠ a kind of responder reverse showing (at least) 5-4 in hearts and spades? And after a later 3♥ bid might even imply 6-5 in the majors?

Or is 2♠ here specifically an artificial GF bid, implying nothing about spades?

[mike777]

Fwiw
I would rebid 3H inv.
I would think 2D was artificial gf...
After 3H with minimum and that shape pass



Maximum I would have bid 3NT even with no stoppers....

Fwiw2
I would take 2 spades as artificial and solid invite in clubs..
Fwiw3

That leaves 3 clubs over 2 clubs as weakish raise..blocking bid...

[jillybean]

I am going to game with this hand, so 3H is out of the question.
Partner has denied 4 spades with his 2C rebid so while 2S is technically a 'responder's reverse' it creates the force and allows partner to show 3 card heart support.
This 3613 hand is difficult to bid, I have to make a small fib and I would rather fib where I have values as partner may now be able to bid nt.
It isn't ideal, we haven't created a gf first round.

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I would play this as red suits, probe for nt

(waiting for the axe to drop)

[akwoo]

You should be playing 2D as new minor forcing in this situation. So you bid 2D, artificial, at least invitational. Following that with 3H (or 4H, if partner bids 2H) will get the point across.

It's true that 5C could be right, but in most MP fields you'll rather gamble 3N than play 5C if partner doesn't have any hearts for you.

[jdiana]

I guess you're learning that there's no such thing as a simple question.

I agree that 2♠ is a responder's reverse (I guess I don't have to agree - it is that by definition ) but it doesn't necessarily promise 4 cards. This is a good summary - https://www.betterbr...ndard200905.pdf Auctions can get a little awkward when the opener rebids their suit, at least for me. 2♠ is a way to create a GF and explore for the best contract.

It seems that we have some different opinions on what a 2♦ bid would mean. When exploring for NT, my partner and I had this agreement about asking/showing stoppers: If there is only one unbid suit, then bidding that suit is asking partner if they have the suit stopped. If there are two unbid suits, then bidding a new suit is telling partner that we have the suit stopped. So, for me, 2♦ by South would be showing a stopper.

I kind of agree with Mike777 that this hand is borderline for creating a GF, but I would be fine if my partner did so. After 2♠, with a 3-1-3-6 hand, I would bid 2NT if I had a diamond stopper though I don't love bidding notrump with a singleton. It's also not ideal on this particular hand because South has only a partial stopper in spades. Just my two cents.

[jillybean]

If it was a simple game, no one would be playing it.

[mike777]

I was taught to be conservative with my game invites and be aggressive accepting game invites. I try to be consistent in that approach.
However many play differently and win.

[Cyberyeti]

Does partner bid 2♥ rather than 2♣ with a minimum, 6 clubs and 3 hearts ?

You say 2♣ guarantees 6, do you open 1♦ with a (13)45 regardless of suit quality ?

As Akwoo says, many people play an artificial 2♦ here, some play it GF, some just F1 and opener describes his hand, look up Bourke relays for details of one such scheme, we play a home hashed one where it is only F1.

Your possibilities without this are 2♠ fake reverse, but what of 3♦ ? if this is a splinter with a club fit, it may be appropriate and will keep you out of 3N if a lot of diamonds are running.

[mw64ahw]

This is a tricky one, which the OP frames well.
South's hand should be looking to force to 3N, but may ultimately fail to make game if opener has a bare minimum. Where are opener's ~6+hcp outside of ♣s? Can an additional two tricks be taken outside of those identified in ♣ and ♥. What can we infer from the opposition's passes in terms of their points and card distribution?
I favour 2♠ here as a reverse with the partial stopper. A nebulous NMF is more efficient as it give opener the opportunity to show ♥ support, but unagreed I've had 2♦ passed as preference with pick up partners.
I tend to take jdiana's approach to stopper bidding so opener may well bid 2/3N with a ♦ stopper.

[Tramticket]

How do you play 1C-2H? Is it strong or weak?

If you play 1C-2H as weak (say 4-8), then 1C-1H; 2C-2H becomes stronger (say 9-11) and 1C-1H; 2C-3H is now forcing to game.

[apollo1201]

A non-NB gadget (2D as 3rd suit forcing) will not prevent the auction to get tricky.

Unless partner opens really light very often, you probably want to be in game even at MPs.

So 3H and 3C are out and you are to bid 2D (that has the advantage of being the cheapest bid, hence leaving more space below 3NT to exchange info).

That is not GF, as a minimum reply can be passed (eg 2H, 2NT with S and D stopped, or 3C). As a corollary a non min partner that cannot bid sth natural (3H, 3NT) will bid 2S, artificial.


That will not save you here as you will have to bid 3H in case partner has 2. And you will be a bit high to assess stoppers in both D and S.


I guess partner will bid 3S, I have S stopped but not D, or 3NT I have D stopped and maybe S as well.

So even gadgets cannot have everything solved.

[Ranmit]

jillybean, on 2024-November-01, 20:22, said:

Partner has denied 4 spades with his 2C rebid so while 2S is technically a 'responder's reverse' it creates the force and allows partner to show 3 card heart support.
This 3613 hand is difficult to bid, I have to make a small fib and I would rather fib where I have values as partner may now be able to bid nt.
It isn't ideal, we haven't created a gf first round.

I like the partial lie with 2S, at least creating GF and potentially showing spade stopper. But, for completeness, what would the bid be if the majors were reversed?
2♥ now is not forcing and could well be passed? (It is also a more dangerous lie - Partner may support with a 4 card heart).

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[apollo1201]

Ranmit, on 2024-November-02, 10:07, said:

I like the partial lie with 2S, at least creating GF and potentially showing spade stopper. But, for completeness, what would the bid be if the majors were reversed?
2♥ now is not forcing and could well be passed? (It is also a more dangerous lie - Partner may support with a 4 card heart).

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2H is usually played as forcing 1 round - especially if you use 1m-2H as weakish 5S + 4H.

That is why playing 2D as artificial (9+ points at least to cater for a max partner that has 15-16 with so-so C suit or 4D + 5C) rather than semi natural is safer. But it is not an easy convention

[Ranmit]

apollo1201, on 2024-November-02, 09:56, said:

So 3H and 3C are out and you are to bid 2D (that has the advantage of being the cheapest bid, hence leaving more space below 3NT to exchange info).

That is not GF, as a minimum reply can be passed (eg 2H, 2NT with S and D stopped, or 3C). As a corollary a non min partner that cannot bid sth natural (3H, 3NT) will bid 2S, artificial.

That will not save you here as you will have to bid 3H in case partner has 2. And you will be a bit high to assess stoppers in both D and S.

I guess partner will bid 3S, I have S stopped but not D, or 3NT I have D stopped and maybe S as well.

So even gadgets cannot have everything solved.

I am not sure I understand the advantage of 2♦ NMF here. I primarily want to find if a) partner has either 2 card heart, or b) a diamond stopper. What is partner supposed to bid here with a min hand, and either of the 2 above? He can't bid 2♥ with just 2 cards (he doesnt know I have 6), nor really 2NT without both diamond and spade stopped? I think this would just be getting a 3♣ bid, with me being none the wiser as to whether he has a) or b) above.
And a subsequent 3♥ bid (1♣ 1♥ 2♣ 2♦ 3♣ 3♥) feels more like a scramble than GF, partner might pass even with 2 hearts?

[mike777]

Great thread great comments

I am still bidding 3 spades inv.
Conservative game invites
Please accept game tries aggressively..

😁

[mike777]

Why I just play 2D as artificial gf. Just make the best rebid you can.
Do you have a specific hand?

[jillybean]

Ranmit, on 2024-November-02, 10:07, said:

I like the partial lie with 2S, at least creating GF and potentially showing spade stopper. But, for completeness, what would the bid be if the majors were reversed?
2♥ now is not forcing and could well be passed? (It is also a more dangerous lie - Partner may support with a 4 card heart).

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2H , new suit by responder is 100% forcing.

[apollo1201]

Ranmit, on 2024-November-02, 10:22, said:

I am not sure I understand the advantage of 2♦ NMF here. I primarily want to find if a) partner has either 2 card heart, or b) a diamond stopper. What is partner supposed to bid here with a min hand, and either of the 2 above? He can't bid 2♥ with just 2 cards (he doesnt know I have 6), nor really 2NT without both diamond and spade stopped? I think this would just be getting a 3♣ bid, with me being none the wiser as to whether he has a) or b) above.
And a subsequent 3♥ bid (1♣ 1♥ 2♣ 2♦ 3♣ 3♥) feels more like a scramble than GF, partner might pass even with 2 hearts?

As a general rule, one does not try to improve a partial. So over a min response by opener, if responder bids again, it is (game) forcing.

As why 2D vs 2S, I find it easier to play that 2S vs 2D denies long H and is GF while 2D is used when you have 5+ H and also with slightly weaker hands than a GF. Just a préférence and overall consistency.