[jdiana]

This has been bugging me since I saw a hand posted on Bridge Winners yesterday. Playing with BBO robots, the bidding started (P)-P-(P)-1♠-(P)-2♦-(P)-3♥. The BW post has disappeared somehow so I can't provide a link but, IIRC, the BBO explanation for the 3♥ bid was something like 13-21 HCP, 14-24 total points.

Playing standard SAYC or 2/1, in a constructive auction where partner is not a passed hand, a jump shift by opener to the two level, e.g., 1♣-1♥-2♠, shows a strong hand (about 18+ points) and is game forcing.

I played two-way Drury so I would not have the BBO auction shown above but, assuming that 2♦ bid is natural, what does opener's jump shift show? (Even assuming we're playing 2/1, that would not apply because partner is a passed hand.)

Playing SAYC, where a 2-level response shows about 10+ points, what would opener's jump shift show, e.g., 1♠-(P)-2♦-(P)-3♥? (This is different from the first auction because responder hasn't limited his hand by passing.) This is not listed as a possible jump shift on Larry Cohen's website - https://www.larryco....and-a-jumpshift

In the link above, under reverses, Larry says: "We are concerned only with auctions where responder bid on the one-level. If responder responds on the two-level, don't think of reverses." Does the same thing apply for opener jump shifts, i.e., do they not exist?

I'm probably just missing something but I'm puzzled.

[mw64ahw]

I used to play this as invitational 55 in the Majors

[TMorris]

I would play it as a splinter in support of diamonds

[smerriman]

The question really is, after the 2♦ bid, is 2♥ forcing?

If so, then you don't need to jump to show a strong hand, like you do after a 1 over 1 response where a simple new suit is NF. And so a level higher than a forcing bid would be a splinter for me.

GIB describes 2♥ as NF which is why that person had to jump in the thread you're referring to, which seems unusual to me. But passed hand 2/1s are so rare, I'd expect a lot of human partnerships don't handle them well either..

[jdiana]

 smerriman, on 2024-November-28, 12:44, said:

The question really is, after the 2♦ bid, is 2♥ forcing?

If so, then you don't need to jump to show a strong hand, like you do after a 1 over 1 response where a simple new suit is NF. And so a level higher than a forcing bid would be a splinter for me.

GIB describes 2♥ as NF which is why that person had to jump in the thread you're referring to, which seems unusual to me. But passed hand 2/1s are so rare, I'd expect a lot of human partnerships don't handle them well either..

Thanks Stephen. That makes sense.

[DavidKok]

I prefer to play that 2♥ is forcing here, but had a mixup with a partner a few weeks ago as he thought it was NF and my rebid promised something more.

[jdiana]

FWIW, there was a related discussion on BW a while back - https://bridgewinner...d-2-ct0n1dv4gn/

[DavidKok]

I think I'm misunderstanding the link you posted. If I'm a passed hand and then bid a natural 2/1, I'm limiting my hand to approximately 10-11 points, 5(+) cards in the suit bid, and no fit. There is no room for me to have more.
The question is whether a change of suit by opener is forcing, not what responder promised.

[jdiana]

DavidKok, on 2024-November-29, 08:08, said:

I think I'm misunderstanding the link you posted. If I'm a passed hand and then bid a natural 2/1, I'm limiting my hand to approximately 10-11 points, 5(+) cards in the suit bid, and no fit. There is no room for me to have more.
The question is whether a change of suit by opener is forcing, not what responder promised.

It was a little confusing. The OP in that thread asked whether responder's 2/1 bid (by a passed hand) promised another bid, which is the flip side of asking whether opener's new suit rebid is forcing if opener chooses to rebid. If I have it right.

See Paul Hightower's comment: "Steve did not ask whether the 2/1 bid was forcing, he asked whether, assuming opener takes a second bid, responder promises a rebid: p-1♠; 2♦-2♥; can responder pass? I would emphatically say no, opener can have quite a wide range for 2♥ and it is better to treat 2♥ as forcing than to allow responder to drop it there."

I think the general rule in standard bidding is that a new suit by opener is not forcing, so situations like this probably need to be discussed by a regular partnership.

[DavidKok]

For me 'promises another bid' usually means something like 'safety one level higher than my current bid'. It's stronger than 'forcing' but weaker than 'forcing to game'. It's close to disappeared from modern play, but still exists on specific auctions. My main example is reverses - on the start 1♣-1♠; 2♦ the reverse makes responder's 2♠ forcing, as opener isn't done describing their hand.
From that perspective I'm struggling to apply the concept here. In fact, it seems out of place to say this about any limited non-forcing bid.

[bluenikki]

DavidKok, on 2024-November-29, 09:39, said:

From that perspective I'm struggling to apply the concept here. In fact, it seems out of place to say this about any limited non-forcing bid.

Doesn't that just mean that responder must not be swashbuckling with a 2/1?

[smerriman]

DavidKok, on 2024-November-29, 09:39, said:

From that perspective I'm struggling to apply the concept here. In fact, it seems out of place to say this about any limited non-forcing bid.

In SAYC, the main time 'promises another bid' is used is for a 2/1 by an unpassed hand, and virtually every time I've seen the phrase used, it was in the context of opener not being sure if their bid was forcing or not. So it makes some sense to ask the same thing about a passed hand where auctions become SAYC-like, even though you're right that the fact opener can now pass makes the literal meaning somewhat confusing.

[jillybean]

jdiana, on 2024-November-29, 08:18, said:

It was a little confusing. The OP in that thread asked whether responder's 2/1 bid (by a passed hand) promised another bid, which is the flip side of asking whether opener's new suit rebid is forcing if opener chooses to rebid. If I have it right.

See Paul Hightower's comment: "Steve did not ask whether the 2/1 bid was forcing, he asked whether, assuming opener takes a second bid, responder promises a rebid: p-1♠; 2♦-2♥; can responder pass? I would emphatically say no, opener can have quite a wide range for 2♥ and it is better to treat 2♥ as forcing than to allow responder to drop it there."

I think the general rule in standard bidding is that a new suit by opener is not forcing, so situations like this probably need to be discussed by a regular partnership.

Very late to thread.
p-1♠; 2♦-2♥; can responder pass? I'd say yes. How wide ranging can opener be in a P 1S 2m 2H auction, what do you do with a minimum 5503/5413 hand?
2D is non forcing, this is a misfit situation where opener is offering choice of Majors.

Oh, its BOTS, never mind

[steve2005]

smerriman, on 2024-November-28, 12:44, said:

GIB describes 2♥ as NF which is why that person had to jump in the thread you're referring to, which seems unusual to me. But passed hand 2/1s are so rare, I'd expect a lot of human partnerships don't handle them well either..

What's funnier is 3♥ doesn't really show any significant extra values. It just shows a couple extra points such that game is likely but even then not still assured as GiB will do 2♦ on some pretty weak hands and no fit is assured.
So, This makes any scientific slam bidding almost impossible. And I think from the 3♥ bidders hand they were looking for slam.
The method does not seem optimal.

[jdiana]

If anyone's interested, the hand that started all this has been reposted on Bridge Winners as a bidding problem.
https://bridgewinner...m-2-d4q023fmnv/

[helene_t]

2H is forcing in modern Acol in which 2d could be a tad weaker. So playing it as nf in a 5card major system seems weird to me.
I prefer the 2level response always to promise a rebid , certainly by a passed hand, maybe also if it's a freebid. I think that's how sayc should be interpretted also.

[mike777]

Posting specific deal would be helpful.
Seems pretty rare where responder is passed hand, responds 2D and does not respond 1nt and passing 2h causes problem and opener could not respond 3h over 2d.

[jillybean]

DavidKok, on 2024-November-29, 08:08, said:

If I'm a passed hand and then bid a natural 2/1, I'm limiting my hand to approximately 10-11 points, 5(+) cards in the suit bid, and no fit. There is no room for me to have more.

Playing aggressive 1 level openings , I’d define this more. Partner is showing 10 or a bad 11, 5 cards, no fit.

[DavidKok]

Sure, the real meaning is 'invitational natural NF, no fit' and it ranges from a good 9 to a bad 11. What's more, certain hands with a 5cm will opt to bid 1NT instead. The "10-11" range I stated is a disclosure and teaching aid, not a binding legal agreement with Milton Work.

[awm]

Elianna and I do actually play 3♥ natural and game force here, even though 2♥ is forcing. The issue is sequences like 1♠-2♦-2♥-2nt/3♦ where openers 3♥ would not be forcing, leaving opener stuck with a slammish two suiter.

In general one weakness of 2/1 players (non-experts anyway) is that they often don’t know what they’re doing in the non-GF 2/1 sequences that come up by passed hands or in competition. There are obviously a few possible agreements and it helps to discuss them!