[baabaa]

My partner and I have been unsure about the follow-up to the bidding below:

1♥-1♠-3♥

Specifically, we are wondering what 4♣ or 4♦ should mean now. Should those bids be natural, or control bids agreeing to hearts as trump?

[mike777]

Controls

[P_Marlowe]

baabaa, on 2025-March-31, 06:38, said:

<snip> control bids agreeing to hearts as trump <snip>

[mycroft]

"There are no new suits at the 4 level". It's not 100%, but it's a really good meta-agreement (i.e. "if there's no actual agreement that this is...then the meta-agreement applies".)

This might be one of the "try 3NT, knowing it's a misfit" hands.

But you need to be able to agree hearts without bidding (a passable) 4 or (a mindless, early) 4NT. So, controls it is.

[Cyberyeti]

So what do you do with Axxxx, void, x, QJ10xxxx ? Just say "bad hand for the system" ?

[bluenikki]

Cyberyeti, on 2025-March-31, 10:38, said:

So what do you do with Axxxx, void, x, QJ10xxxx ? Just say "bad hand for the system" ?

exactly.

The jump should say, "We shall play in hearts or notrump."

[Cyberyeti]

bluenikki, on 2025-March-31, 11:14, said:

The jump should say, "We shall play in hearts or notrump."

The jump should say I have a good 6 card+ suit and too much to rebid 2♥, that does NOT guarantee hearts or NT is the right spot.

We have a further wrinkle in theis auction, in that we have a GF unbal 2N available for really big hands, so 3♥ is limited.

[P_Marlowe]

Cyberyeti, on 2025-March-31, 10:38, said:

So what do you do with Axxxx, void, x, QJ10xxxx ? Just say "bad hand for the system" ?

Pass or bid 3S, forcing to game, Pass rates to lead more often to a plus score.

[Cyberyeti]

P_Marlowe, on 2025-March-31, 12:24, said:

Pass or bid 3S, forcing to game, Pass rates to lead more often to a plus score.

Partner has x, AKQxxx, xxx, AKx you might make 3♥, prefer to be in 6♣

[paulg]

My rule is that all two-suited hands with spades can bid a forcing 3♠, freeing up 4♣/♦ to be cue bids agreeing hearts.

We also play that 3♥ is limited.

[bluenikki]

Cyberyeti, on 2025-March-31, 11:43, said:

The jump should say I have a good 6 card+ suit and too much to rebid 2♥

If that is the definition, you are going down in three facing a mildly misfitting 6-count. Too pessimistic? No, because responder is going to game with an ace and a king.

[Cyberyeti]

bluenikki, on 2025-April-01, 06:32, said:

If that is the definition, you are going down in three facing a mildly misfitting 6-count. Too pessimistic? No, because responder is going to game with an ace and a king.

Then partner will go on over 2♥ (because that can be heavier) on hands where 8 tricks is the limit absent a gadget.

3♥ for us shows about 6.5-7 playing tricks opposite a singleton, with better we bid differently, and an ace and a king is an easy pass with a stiff heart.

[shyams]

Cyberyeti, on 2025-March-31, 13:11, said:

Partner has x, AKQxxx, xxx, AKx you might make 3♥, prefer to be in 6♣

I would bid 3♣ not 3♥ if I held this hand.

In most standard bidding systems, the 3♥ jump is strongly invitational but is not forcing. On the other hand, 3♣ is forcing for 1 round and it's rare for our side wanting to stop below game after 1♥-1♠; 3♣...

[P_Marlowe]

shyams, on 2025-April-01, 09:04, said:

I would bid 3♣ not 3♥ if I held this hand.

In most standard bidding systems, the 3♥ jump is strongly invitational but is not forcing. On the other hand, 3♣ is forcing for 1 round and it's rare for our side wanting to stop below game after 1♥-1♠; 3♣...

I would say 3C is gf.
As it is, I could construct a seq., that reaches a game in clubs ( maybe even slam ), but not after a 1S response.
It is possible after a 1NT response, and an art. 2C response by opener ... although I dont see a reason, why I should
hide the 5 card spade suit.
As it is, clubs are longer, and it will be quite hard to convince p, that clubs are longer.

And yes, I would prefer to reach a club contract, but realistically I am happy to go plus, instead of chasing the gold
at the end of the rainbow.

[Cyberyeti]

shyams, on 2025-April-01, 09:04, said:

I would bid 3♣ not 3♥ if I held this hand.

In most standard bidding systems, the 3♥ jump is strongly invitational but is not forcing. On the other hand, 3♣ is forcing for 1 round and it's rare for our side wanting to stop below game after 1♥-1♠; 3♣...

OK, replace ♥Q with the J, you really bidding a (GF for most) 3♣ ? You're still making 6, now switch the minors, still bidding 3♣ on xxx with ♦AKx ?

[smerriman]

Cyberyeti, on 2025-March-31, 13:11, said:

Partner has x, AKQxxx, xxx, AKx you might make 3♥, prefer to be in 6♣

OK, so you prefer a new suit to be natural, as partner often has AKx in our 7 card suit. What do you instead do if you have slam interest and xx in a side suit?

[DavidKok]

Barring gadgets I prefer for the jump rebid to be approximately 15-17. Stronger hands have to invent a GF jump shift. This is awkward, and one of the reasons I turn to gadgets, but having to rebid 2♥ with a 17-count or nice 16-count is also not great.
Over this I play new suits as control bids, though keep in mind that my 1♥-1♠ start usually does not contain 3(+)♥. This means I will miss 6♣ on the deal upthread.

[Cyberyeti]

smerriman, on 2025-April-01, 13:05, said:

OK, so you prefer a new suit to be natural, as partner often has AKx in our 7 card suit. What do you instead do if you have slam interest and xx in a side suit?

Depends on my hand, particularly at MPs where pinpointing the suit with a hole in can get you a bottom because they find the right lead, I might just ask aces, but also there are a number of hands where I might have done something else first time.

[mike777]

 Cyberyeti, on 2025-March-31, 10:38, said:

So what do you do with Axxxx, void, x, QJ10xxxx ? Just say "bad hand for the system" ?

Yep

[mikl_plkcc]

 Cyberyeti, on 2025-March-31, 10:38, said:

So what do you do with Axxxx, void, x, QJ10xxxx ? Just say "bad hand for the system" ?

If not playing 2/1 game forcing I would have started with 2♣ with such an enormous amount of length points, planning to rebid 2♠ afterwards.

If playing 2/1 game forcing, well, bad luck. That's why I don't like 2/1 game forcing as it is difficult to find partscore in minor suits.