[Shugart23]

I've been pretty comfortable opening 1NT with 10-13 in 1st or 2nd seat, regardless of colors and 13-15 red in 3rd (or 4th) seat. I also thought there was a 4-pount spread allowed in ACBL until recently where apparently one can have a 5 -point spread...eg. 11-15 which is pretty wide. I have observed that when we are 'forced' to open 1D with a NT shape because the point count isn't there, the opponent's ability to compete is much easier and hence overall results aren't as good as when we open 1NT directly. This led us to experimenting widening the range of our NT opening to 10-14 except red in 3rd or 4th where we used 11-15. And sure enough, we have less 1D openings with the wider range, but the wider 1NT range has its own issues.

I am curious to hear, from those that play or have a lot of experience playing weak No Trump what ranges they use in what seats and colors. Would anyone care to respond? Thank you

[DavidKok]

I've played 9-12, 9-13, 9-16*, 10-13, 10-15*, 11-14, 12-14 and 13-15, at varying seats and vulnerabilities. I'm probably forgetting a few too. Mind you, some of these are not legal under ACBL regulations, so make sure you inform yourself of the local rules.

Sorry to sound like a broken record, but I think you are taking the long route to finding out the biggest system weakness of Precision in the Nebulous Diamond. There are plenty of strengths too, but this is a weakness, and shifting NT ladder is in my opinion not improving the position.

*These only in third.

[Shugart23]

DavidKok, on 2026-April-30, 11:45, said:

I've played 9-12, 9-13, 9-16*, 10-13, 10-15*, 11-14, 12-14 and 13-15, at varying seats and vulnerabilities. I'm probably forgetting a few too. Mind you, some of these are not legal under ACBL regulations, so make sure you inform yourself of the local rules.

Sorry to sound like a broken record, but I think you are taking the long route to finding out the biggest system weakness of Precision in the Nebulous Diamond. There are plenty of strengths too, but this is a weakness, and shifting NT ladder is in my opinion not improving the position.

*These only in third.

Yes, You can bring a horse to water but cant get him to drink it sometimes. Our 1D isn't going to be all that nebulous. It will either be 6+ cards in a minor OR a NT shape hand that could not be opened 1NT. So given those constraints ( And ACBL says must be minimum 10 HCP, maximum range 5), would you, or anyone, have a suggestion for our 1NT opening range(s)?

[awm]

My observation with very weak notrumps at vulnerable is that you often end up with -200, which is a disaster at MP (but typically only a small loss at IMPs). This is much more common than actually getting doubled for a number (which occasionally happens but often isn't great at NV either).

Recently I've been using 14-16 (1st/2nd) and 15-17 (3rd/4th) and have been pretty happy with those ranges. I'm sure it'd be okay to swap 1♦ and 1NT at NV, but personally I don't like the bad results you sometimes get on the strong notrump hands from this (easier for opponents to get in, wrong-side some contracts, a bit annoying in competition when you have the strong notrump) and I'm not convinced the occasional wins from the weak 1NT "preempt" are worth enough to counteract it. It's also a bit more to remember, especially if you want to play a different response structure to the weak notrump than the strong one.

[DavidKok]

I agree and would play 14-16. I think shifting this to 15-17 in third and fourth is an improvement, but also a bit more work, so I just play 14-16 at all seats and vulnerabilities. Especially with modern tendencies to upgrade into 1NT the range I expect when people say "15-17" is about 14-16 anyway (though when I say "14-16" I do mean 'almost entirely 14-16, with very rare upgrades and I have not yet seen a downgrade').

[strong 1c]

Thanks both of you. I'm going to be staying with my mini -NT because I open NT more than a higher range will and we are averaging around a 58-60% on the 1NT hands that we do open, which is better than our overall performance of around 53-54. Reasons why we do well vary - could be people don't know how to deal with it, or we preempt them from opening, or our escapes are good or possibly 10-13/14 is just better than 15-17. (It's more fun anyway)

I do struggle in my own mind whether 11-15 , red in 3rd seat is too wide of a range, but since we probably don't have game, maybe its preemptive effect is fine

I do appreciate the responses. Thank you

[jillybean]

strong 1c, on 2026-May-01, 11:25, said:

Thanks both of you. I'm going to be staying with my mini -NT because I open NT more than a higher range will and we are averaging around a 58-60% on the 1NT hands that we do open, which is better than our overall performance of around 53-54. Reasons why we do well vary - could be people don't know how to deal with it, or we preempt them from opening, or our escapes are good or possibly 10-13/14 is just better than 15-17. (It's more fun anyway)

I do struggle in my own mind whether 11-15 , red in 3rd seat is too wide of a range, but since we probably don't have game, maybe its preemptive effect is fine

I do appreciate the responses. Thank you

What are your escapes, please?

[Shugart23]

jillybean, on 2026-May-01, 15:41, said:

What are your escapes, please?

1NT- Doubled - 2X says I have 4 cards in the suit bid and 4 Spades
1NT -Double-Redouble says I have a 5 card suit, please bid 2C and I will Pass or correct. If Opener has 4 clubs however , he will be 2D. If he has 4 Club s and 4 Diamonds, he will be 2H
1NT -Double -Pass- asks Opener to Redouble ( alertable pass) because either I want to play 1NT XX or I will begin escape sequence by naming my cheapest 4 card suit = stroving to find our 7 or 8 card fit
1NT -Pass -Pass-Double-Pass -Pass to Play or hope it was take out
1NT -Pass-Pass-Double -Pass - Pass - 2x is my cheapest 4 card suit, beginning search for 7 card suit
1NT -Pass-Pass-Double-Pass-Pass-Redouble is same as Redouble above (showing 5 card suit somewhere)

We do get hammered from time to time
Also 1NT-Double-2S is to Play

[pescetom]

 DavidKok, on 2026-May-01, 10:22, said:

I agree and would play 14-16. I think shifting this to 15-17 in third and fourth is an improvement, but also a bit more work, so I just play 14-16 at all seats and vulnerabilities. Especially with modern tendencies to upgrade into 1NT the range I expect when people say "15-17" is about 14-16 anyway (though when I say "14-16" I do mean 'almost entirely 14-16, with very rare upgrades and I have not yet seen a downgrade').

I have found an interesting new partner (whoopee) who is still almost a beginner but thinks out of the box and has a clear aptitude for bidding, so I think we will revive my rogue NT subsystem to have some fun on Friday nights.

That currently has a 14-17 range in first three seats, to increase frequency over 15-17 (and to avoid legal bickering about frequent upgrades of 14). Over time we started to downgrade less 14 HCP hands without apparent damage.

In general I found it works so well that I wonder why people prefer a range of only 3 (as in 14-16), particularly if that now leaves a wider gap between 1NT and 2NT, however the system handles that. The range of 4 is effectively split in two by range ask/show mechanisms, which seems sensible to me. We don't have those mechanisms over a natural 1m then 2NT sequence (which also has other limitations, of course).
Probably you are opening the 17-19 range in a 1♣ then 1NT sequence or similar? Or do I miss something?

[DavidKok]

Yes, my 1♣-1♦; 1NT shows 17-19 (in both Dutch Doubleton and in my former strong club systems, ironically). In Dutch Doubleton we further have 1♣-1M; 2NT game forcing 17-19 balanced (replaced with an artificial game forcing 2♦ in very advanced variants of DD) - game forcing as the 1M response was positive.

I'm really happy with showing 3-point ranges at the 1-level, so 11-13, 14-16, 17-19, 20-21, 22-23, 24+ as a ladder really matches my preferences.

[PrecisionL]

For several years we played 12-15 1NT and had problems when responder had exactly 10 hcp (9.4% of all hands). Playing strong club 16+ we also had problems with 15 - 10 when we opened 1M with 15 hcp. So we moved to 14-16 and thus 17-19 balanced for 1♣.

[pescetom]

DavidKok, on 2026-May-02, 10:14, said:

Yes, my 1♣-1♦; 1NT shows 17-19 (in both Dutch Doubleton and in my former strong club systems, ironically). In Dutch Doubleton we further have 1♣-1M; 2NT game forcing 17-19 balanced (replaced with an artificial game forcing 2♦ in very advanced variants of DD) - game forcing as the 1M response was positive.

I'm really happy with showing 3-point ranges at the 1-level, so 11-13, 14-16, 17-19, 20-21, 22-23, 24+ as a ladder really matches my preferences.

Thanks, as I imagined.
It makes sense, although if I had the luxury of 1NT for the intermediate range I might be tempted to use 4-point ranges with 11-13, 1NT 14-17, 1♦;1NT 18-21, 2NT 22-23, 2♣;2NT 24+, which stretches the advantages of 1NT up to 21 and avoids the need for Birthright to differentiate balanced hand ranges.
I can see that we lose precision having steps within 1NT of 2 HCP instead of 1.5 HCP, but that is still better than we have outside the NT ladder.

[Shugart23]

Probability of having 10-14 HCP is a tad over 40%. Probability of having 14-16 HCP is 13.5 % . Probability of having NT distribution (5332,4333,4432) is 47-48% percent. Probability of having NT distribution (5m332,4333,4431) drops to around 39%


Assuming these probabilities are independent (I think they are close but not totally independent), the probability of opening 1NT with 10-14 HCP is 3-4 times more likely than the 14-16 opening 1NT (depends on what you do with 5M332 hands)

Probabilities of opening 1NT drop even further, since most of the time, someone is bidding before you have a chance to open.

Conclusion: I think I am 4 times more likely to open 1NT than my opponents do.

This is not an argument that what I am doing is 'better'; Just presenting numbers that I believe are reasonably close to being correct.

[DavidKok]

You're losing on each sale, but you make up for it in volume!

[Shugart23]

lol. Good one. We are averaging 58-60 on our 1Nt so the volume discount is working

[mike777]

 Shugart23, on 2026-May-03, 07:57, said:

lol. Good one. We are averaging 58-60 on our 1Nt so the volume discount is working

If in top flight fields, impressive

If local club, concerned..


I know Chip Martel has often commented on why he stopped playing weak NT.


Lack of top players playing it, led to lack of theory improvement over the years.
He would certainly encourage theory development and top bridge critical testing