[Fluffy]

The only thing you need to bid 4M after partner's take out double is a 6 card suit. In the major if it is possible .

[coyot]

The_Hog, on Aug 17 2005, 08:44 AM, said:

Interestingly I don't think as a passed hand that there is ANY hand I can think of that is worth jumping to 4S. (I would have opened them all!)

As an unpassed hand, I think it is perfectly reasonable to bid 4S on QJT9xx and an outside A. Now if pd did X on the very strong hand, he can pass in the knowledge that pd hold THIS type of hand. The he S holding is playable opposite a void. I don't know if anyone is prepared to make a distinction between passed and unpassed hands, but it does make sense.

I don't want my partner to jump to game on any hand that does not rule out slam possibility against strong doubles. There are several other possibilities how to bid these hands. 4♠ is a terrible shut-out, after which a possible 6♣ is absolutely unreachable.

2♠ with a passed hand is passable, with an unpassed hand should not be. So, with passed hand, bid 3♠ to say "I would very much like to play 4♠, unless your hand is totally unsuitable.

[mikeh]

This is an example of bad luck, coupled with a dubious, but hardly irrational, decision to pass as dealer.

I am a very strong overcaller. I have made overcalls on 19 count hands quite often (considering how infrequently the opportunity arises) and I HATE takeout doubles unprepared for a major response.

However, I suspect that no serious player would be able to find a simple 1♥ overcall as South: except in a bridge forum, knowing what fate would befall a double!

As for North, having passed, his choices are 2♦, intending to bid ♠ over ANY response, or 4♠.

Those who think 3♠ shows a better hand than 2♠ would definitely be in the minority amongst experts in my part of the world, where 3♠ shows a weak hand with 6 or 7 ♠. Jxxxxxx xx x Qxx would be okay by a passed hand.

It says that we can compete to the 3-level opposite a prototypical 4=4=1=4 takeout double and should be in game opposite extra values and 4=4=1=4 or equivalent shape.

It is not a stronger hand than 2♠: it is a different hand, based on suit length (and assumed fit), not high card strength.

After the 4♠, obviously S cannot pass: how can N have a self-sufficient suit?

And N is correct to bid 5♠: his hand is of almost no use in a ♥ contract.

So chalk this one up to experience, and loosen up your requirements for a weak two in 1st seat

[mikestar]

To make 4♥ partner needs you to have ♥xx and ♣xx or shorter, or ♥xxx and ♦xx or shorter, or ♥xx and ♦9...

That's game opposite some perfect yarboroghs, never mind if you have a card or two--just to strong for an overcall.

[Winstonm]

What is the rush to jump? If the hand is worth either a 1S opening or a 2S opening then surely it is worth a game forcing bid opposite a takeout double. Why not this simple auction?

1D-X-P-2D
P- 2H-P-2S
P-3H-P-3S
P-3N-P-P
P

Unless playing ELC, the doubler has 1 of 3 hand types: a classic takeout double, a NT hand too big for direct action, or a powerful 1-suiter. The responding hand will not be a disappointment opposite any of those, so it seems easiest to show the game values for the partnership with a cue bid. Anyone who doesn't value this hand as worthy of a game force opposite a standard takeout double is, IMHO, forgetting to visualize the combined assests.

Kxxx, QJxx, x, Axxx: a classic minimum
Kxx, AQxxx, x, KJx: The "unlucky" normal that is still a good bet.

Anything better than these and you have to like it. Even the non-fit twenty count plays in 3N with decent chances. So why not tell your partner that we belong in some game, then you have lots of room to find the best game?

Guess I'm simpleminded.

Winston

[mike777]

No, I am even more simpleminded I just bid 4h with this hand, give on slam, keeps bidding simpleminded.

[the hog]

Mike, I don't think you mean "simpleminded". However the jump to 4 is an extremely poor bid, perhaps though not as bad as bidding 1H as has already been pointed out. Opposite the CQ, DQ and a couple of H to the J you are in the refrigerator for 6H.

[Winstonm]

If one plays a limited bid system, a 1S bid is acceptable for me with this hand; however, I am strongly against a 2S bid. IMO, voids carry too much weight to ever be expressed adequately after a preemptive bid, especially one with another useful card for defense.

I don't believe it is possible for many to find slam after 2S with this:

AKxxx
Jxxx,
x
AKJ

However, after this auction:

P-P-1S-P
4H*

There is a realistic chance, now - how can a passed hand splinter and force to game without great length, shape, and a void?

Winston

[coyot]

Winstonm, on Aug 18 2005, 11:36 PM, said:

Kxxx, QJxx, x, Axxx: a classic minimum
Kxx, AQxxx, x, KJx: The "unlucky" normal that is still a good bet.

Why do you expect partner so surely to have singleton diamond? Classic hands will be of 3-4-2-4- or 3-5-2-3 shapes (the latter with bad hearts).

The unlucky normal would be xxx - KQJx - Kx - KJxx