[Quantumcat]

Scoring: MP

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I opened 1♣, and partner said ... 1♦! I bid 4NT, if he had 1 keycard and said 5♣, 5♦ is perfect contract (he can hardly have 4) if he has 2 he'll say 5♥ and I can put him in 6♦ (which he did on this occaison). But, if he said 5♦ I would be in trouble cause with no keycards we can't even play 5♦ but with 3 we should be in 7♦, and I have to decide now, I can't make some little bid and get partner to correct it if he had the higher number!

Obviously playing inverted RKCB would work way better (with 5♣ I can bid 5♦ to get him to correct it if he had the 3 keycards, 5♦ I can just pass with his 1 keycard since he can't have 4). Is it just this particular occasion, or does it often work out better in minor suit contracts, to use inverted RKCB?

Also should I have bid it differently just in case he has no keycards and we can stop in 4♦?

[blackshoe]

Inverted?! The original form of RKCB used 5♣ to show 0 or 3 keycards and 5♦ to show 1 or 4. Much more recently someone (possibly Eddie Kantar, who has publicised it in his books on RKCB) came up with the idea of using 5♣ to show 1 or 4 and 5♦ to show 0 or 3. The reason behind this inversion is that if spades aren't trumps, there isn't enough room below 5 of the trump suit for all the follow ups, particularly when you need to ask for the queen. "1430" is at best a partial solution to the problem. Kickback is a far better one, IMO. In Kickback, the asking bid is 4 of the denomination above trumps - 4♦ when clubs are trumps, 4♥ when diamonds are trumps, and so on up to 4NT when spades are trumps. With Kickback, it really doesn't matter much whether you use 1430 or the original 0314 (or 3014, take your pick), particularly if you use something like the spiral scan for followups, instead of the space consuming and not very useful "number of kings" method - or even the "specific king" method Kantar recommends.

[mike777]

I love kickback but have real doubts about advocating it in the BIL forum.
It is an extremely confusing convention esp. when dealing with two touching suits and what 4nt is going to mean and when.

Oh and then just add on when, if ever, responder is going to show voids and how. Some never show voids, others sometimes show voids and still others always show voids

As for spiral scan, Jimmy tried to teach me that over 1nt for 2 years and I never understood it.

[blackshoe]

Spiral scan over 1NT? Not sure how that would work myself.

I think beginners, at least some beginners, are capable of learning just about anything they put their minds to. I would agree that beginners have more pressing things to worry about in their bidding repertoire than kickback or spiral scan.

The OP asked if jumping to 4NT over partner's 1D response was the right move. I didn't answer that, but let me try now: if responder is bidding his suits "up the line" he could have a minimum 6 points and 4 diamond spots. Then even 5D might not make - but you want to be in it anyway, because there's really no way to find out what you need to know. So I would bid 4D. This should be forcing to 5D, and if partner has a useful card or two, he should probably cue bid. Now you can RKCB with a little safety. whichever way you play the replies to it.

[ralph23]

mike777, on Jul 30 2007, 10:18 PM, said:

I love kickback but have real doubts about advocating it in the BIL forum.
It is an extremely confusing convention ...

I agree. We play Kickback and love it, but have had numerous foul-ups on it (other than just forgetting it or the responses ). If adopted by B/I's I would suggest the following:

1. Only use it after EXPRESS suit agreement, either via a regular raise or a conventional one (e.g. J2nt, splinter, cue bid if that shows support etc.).
2. Else 4NT is Keycard asking.

On your auction (posted), would you have a meaning assigned to opener's bidding 3♥ (double jump shift)? Such as a splinter, forcing and agreement upon ♦?

[helene_t]

Normally you must build up slowly and not ask kc before the 4th round or so, because knowing the number of aces alone does not enable you to count 12 or 13 tricks. For that reason, you need a forcing ♦ raise. A 3♥ or 3♠ splinter would work with this hand. Otherwise 2N if you're sure that's forcing. 4♦ is probably forcing as well.

In this case, keycards happento be all you want to know, but since you don't know if p has 0 or 3, it's still premature. (Maybe p, with 3 keycards, will just bid 7♦ if you bid 4N, on the basis of the theory that if 5 is safe with nothing in his hand, 7 must be safe with 3 keycards).

Another issue is that 4N as kc-asking for a minor is not a great convention. First, the response may be above the safety level. Second, 4N is sometimes a sign-off after a slam try in a minor, so if 4N can also be kc asking, it's confusing. Personally I think Minorwood is easier than Kick-back.

More generally, 1430 it slightly better than 0314 because it reduces the frequency of
4N-5♦
?
when hearts are trump and ♥Q has not been located. Also for ♠ auctions, the 5♦ bid can be put to some use (I think it asks for the king of diamonds but there may be no standard meaning of that bid).

[kenrexford]

One concern with Kickback is when the focus minor is diamonds. In many auctions, there will be a "focus minor" but a "backup option major," where the partnership might opt to land if slam is ruled out for some reason.

A classic example might be 1♥-P-2♦-P-3♦... At some point, Responder may want to offer 4♥ as a better landing zone.

I assume that those who use Kickback will "kick up" to 4♠ as RKCB for diamonds if 4♥ is a viable landing zone contract.

The other concern that I have with Kickback for clubs is that you lose some space for Last Train bidding. If you bypass 3NT to bid 4♣, you do not have any space with which to punt. If "cheapest out-of-focus major" is the keycard call, then 4♦ becomes a LTTC call, which if often quite useful. The cost is some cramping when the out-of-focus major is spades, of course.

So, for me at least, I have decided that the better aproach is for the cheapest out-of-focus major to be LTTC for the focus minor. Some may want to consider that.

BTW -- when a minor has been agreed in such a way that 4NT is not a viable landing zone, using 4NT as LTTC in some club auctions is also useful.

[mike777]

ROFL first Kickback and now LTTC in the BIL forum. Let's add out of focus major ace asking too.!

Right on!

[jdonn]

The opponents never bid despite holding about 59 cards in the majors, and partner responded 1♦ to your opening bid so probably isn't missing AKQT. So he has 3 keycards if he responds 5♦.

I personally believe 1430 is a lot better than 3014, simply because 1 is by far the more common response so it helps to have that be lower.

[Quantumcat]

If I bid 3♥ splinter and GF, he can tell me when he has the heart ace so I can bid 4NT confidently, what if he doesn't have it? How can I be sure that he's had every opportunity to tell me about the heart ace, and stay at the four level so I can bid 4NT, I seem to keep heading to 5D, like for example, 3♥, 4♣ (void), 4♦ keep going, 5♦ I don't have the spade ace or heart ace. Now how do I find out about the AK of diamonds?

Is this cuebidding wrong? Maybe it's easier just to bid 4NT and not believe he could have zero keycards and bash 7♦.

[kenrexford]

mike777, on Jul 31 2007, 04:53 PM, said:

ROFL first Kickback and now LTTC in the BIL forum. Let's add out of focus major ace asking too.!

Right on!

Oh, well we have not yet even arrived at implicit denial cues, alternative lesser keys keycard, or upside-down inverted summersault asking cue-probes. What's the problem?

[blackshoe]

Quantumcat, on Jul 31 2007, 09:46 PM, said:

If I bid 3♥ splinter and GF, he can tell me when he has the heart ace so I can bid 4NT confidently, what if he doesn't have it? How can I be sure that he's had every opportunity to tell me about the heart ace, and stay at the four level so I can bid 4NT, I seem to keep heading to 5D, like for example, 3♥, 4♣ (void), 4♦ keep going, 5♦ I don't have the spade ace or heart ace. Now how do I find out about the AK of diamonds?

Is this cuebidding wrong? Maybe it's easier just to bid 4NT and not believe he could have zero keycards and bash 7♦.

Easier, sure. Right is another question.

The auction goes 1♣-1♦-3♥ (splinter). Now partner should cue bid an ace, but he can't cuebid in diamonds, and the only other ace he could have is in your singleton. He should cuebid it though, if he's not bare minimum, because (a) 3♥ is a slam try, and ( he can show the ♥A below game. Now you can RKC to check on his trump holding.

After 1♣-1♦-3♥-4♣, imo 4♦ should be RKC. You made a slam try, he cooperated. If you wanted to continue cuebidding, you could do so. 4♦ as a sort of waiting bid, giving partner a chance to cue bid again, seems wasteful to me.

[Quantumcat]

I've never heard of 4♦ being RKC. What method is that? And if 4♦ is not a waiting bid, how do you give him a chance to show both his club void and his heart ace? Not that we're interested in his club void but he'll want to show that first.

[SoTired]

jdonn, on Jul 31 2007, 05:09 PM, said:

The opponents never bid despite holding about 59 cards in the majors, and partner responded 1♦ to your opening bid so probably isn't missing AKQT. So he has 3 keycards if he responds 5♦.

I personally believe 1430 is a lot better than 3014, simply because 1 is by far the more common response so it helps to have that be lower.

Of course... The simple answer to the simple question. This is an exceptional case to the 1430 being better, so no change is required.

I see nothing wrong with 4N RKC here, since you know exactly what you want to bid based on partner's reply.

If you want to play "kickback", I recommend a simple, explicit set of rules:

1) If a GF, minor suit is agreed below 4m, then 4m is RKC.
2) If 4m is needed to agree to a minor suit, then next step above 4m is RKC.

[cherdano]

Quantumcat, on Aug 1 2007, 12:02 AM, said:

I've never heard of 4♦ being RKC. What method is that? And if 4♦ is not a waiting bid, how do you give him a chance to show both his club void and his heart ace? Not that we're interested in his club void but he'll want to show that first.

The method is called minorwood and very bad (Just my opinion of course.)

[P_Marlowe]

Quantumcat, on Jul 31 2007, 09:46 PM, said:

If I bid 3♥ splinter and GF, he can tell me when he has the heart ace so I can bid 4NT confidently, what if he doesn't have it? How can I be sure that he's had every opportunity to tell me about the heart ace, and stay at the four level so I can bid 4NT, I seem to keep heading to 5D, like for example, 3♥, 4♣ (void), 4♦ keep going, 5♦ I don't have the spade ace or heart ace. Now how do I find out about the AK of diamonds?

Is this cuebidding wrong? Maybe it's easier just to bid 4NT and not believe he could have zero keycards and bash 7♦.

Hi,

since no one did suggest it:
A possible option, would be bidding 4D,
as natural forward going move asking
partner to cooperate, if his hand seems
suitable for slam, if he has an unsuitable
hand, he should sign of in 5D.
He will always cooperate, in case he holds
at least 2 keycard, and if he cooperates,
you have your answer.

Regarding 3041 and 4130: I onece agreed to
play this in a small tourney, twice I wanted to
investigate a slam in clubs missing 2 Aces.
I was a whimp, ... and did not bid 4NT out of fear
to hear 5D.
Later I was told, if I play 4130, I need to play
minorwood as well.
Since then I play 3041 and no need to change.

With kind regards
Marlowe