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BBOFlash Comments Thread3 Release 6

#81 User is offline   mink 

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Posted 2008-June-06, 07:40

fred, on Jun 6 2008, 01:35 PM, said:

mink, on Jun 5 2008, 10:57 PM, said:

10. A tourney is finished. I click on "Refresh" in the list of the tables of the tourney, which causes the Home display to appear. However, results are still displayed in the "My table" area, and I now can also look at what happened at other tables. But the hand displayed below the result list does not show the hand belonging to highlighted result above. Rather, the hand that happened to be there remains there. The << button below the hand moves the highlight one result upwards, but still the hand displayed remains the same. However, the >> button displays the next hand alright, until the last hand is reached, which stays there until I enter another table.

12. In a tourney where the movement places me on different compass directions in different rounds, it is confusing to see the "My Table" results from the N/S perspective for all hands, and nothing indicates where I was sitting in this round, unless I click on the result and (hopefully) get the hand displayed. When I later show the results with the "Recent Tournaments display, I see a "We" and "They" column. I really prefer the we-and-they display and suggest you use only this one whenever my results are shown. But when displaying "Other Tables", "We" and "They" makes less sense of course.

The issues in 10 and 12 are not intentional either and (unfortunately) my initial attempts to replicate these conditions have failed. Can you please tell me:

Quote

1) What kind of a tournament were you playing in?
It was tourney #1834, Host TOLGABF, pairs, MP, unclocked

Quote

2) Did you get disconnected (or logoff and login again) either in the middle of the tournament or immediately after it ended?
no

Quote

3) About 12, you should see we/they instead of ns/ew. Do you remember if you saw ns/ew while you were playing, after the tourney ended, or in both cases?
I saw it all the time after I finished playing, before the tourney ended and after the tourney ended. I am not really sure if I saw it while I was still playing, but I think I did.

Karl
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#82 User is offline   mink 

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Posted 2008-June-06, 11:10

Meanwhile I managed to play in 2 tourneys without any BBO$. The first one was an Indy (#1080, host ASLIHAN1, unclocked). During the play of the first board the "My Table" display was in N/S-E/W mode. When the first result was displayed, it changed to the We/They mode and remained this way even after I finished the last board. I was perfectly able to access all the boards I had played. Then I asked the director to open the tables for kibbing. When I entered a table, the "My Table" display showed the results of that table (in N/S-E/W mode of course), and even when I moved back to the list of tables my own results did not re-appear.

Before this tourney was finished I was sucked into another tourney (#334, host satto, pairs, clocked, swiss). Here, the display was in the We/They mode from the start, even when there was no result available while playing the first board. After I had finished the last board, it was still in We/They mode and I was able to access all my hands. When I kibbed at some table still playing, however, it changed to N/S-E/W mode, but still displayed my results and not the results of the table I was kibbing. I was kibbing at the last table when the tourney ended by an adjustment. The "Other Tables" tab appeared, but "My table" was still in N/S-E/W mode. I was able to navigate in the results list, but the display below the list showed board 7 all the time, and I found no way to get another board displayed, even the >> key did not work this time. When navigating in the list, it happened that the IMP score where I clicked moved from N/S to E/W.

By the way, when kibbing in the indy I think I saw a board in the main display rotated such that the West hand was in the lowermost position.

Another funny thing: during the last tourney I was dummy in the last board of a round, and felt I should google some non-bridge subject. When I returned to the BBO window, I saw that my partner could win all remaining tricks but did not play. After a while, I called the director, making myself a fool, because the board had been finished by a claim long ago, and this was indicated by the message in the lower left corner of the display as well as by the result in the "My Table" area. But the fact that all cards, played and non-played, remained in the same position after the claim, made me believe that the play was still in progress. Maybe it is better to display all cards or no cards at all when a board is finished and not immediately followed by another board.

Karl
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#83 User is offline   fred 

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Posted 2008-June-06, 11:22

mink, on Jun 6 2008, 05:10 PM, said:

Meanwhile I managed to play in 2 tourneys without any BBO$. The first one was an Indy (#1080, host ASLIHAN1, unclocked). During the play of the first board the "My Table" display was in N/S-E/W mode. When the first result was displayed, it changed to the We/They mode and remained this way even after I finished the last board. I was perfectly able to access all the boards I had played. Then I asked the director to open the tables for kibbing. When I entered a table, the "My Table" display showed the results of that table (in N/S-E/W mode of course), and even when I moved back to the list of tables my own results did not re-appear.

Before this tourney was finished I was sucked into another tourney (#334, host satto, pairs, clocked, swiss). Here, the display was in the We/They mode from the start, even when there was no result available while playing the first board. After I had finished the last board, it was still in We/They mode and I was able to access all my hands. When I kibbed at some table still playing, however, it changed to N/S-E/W mode, but still displayed my results and not the results of the table I was kibbing. I was kibbing at the last table when the tourney ended by an adjustment. The "Other Tables" tab appeared, but "My table" was still in N/S-E/W mode. I was able to navigate in the results list, but the display below the list showed board 7 all the time, and I found no way to get another board displayed, even the >> key did not work this time. When navigating in the list, it happened that the IMP score where I clicked moved from N/S to E/W.

By the way, when kibbing in the indy I think I saw a board in the main display rotated such that the West hand was in the lowermost position.

Another funny thing: during the last tourney I was dummy in the last board of a round, and felt I should google some non-bridge subject. When I returned to the BBO window, I saw that my partner could win all remaining tricks but did not play. After a while, I called the director, making myself a fool, because the board had been finished by a claim long ago, and this was indicated by the message in the lower left corner of the display as well as by the result in the "My Table" area. But the fact that all cards, played and non-played, remained in the same position after the claim, made me believe that the play was still in progress. Maybe it is better to display all cards or no cards at all when a board is finished and not immediately followed by another board.

Karl

Thanks Karl.

We just added $10 BB$ to your "mink" account.

It sounds like there is definitely a problem when you kibitz a tourney that you just finished playing in - it is not supposed to work as you described.

Is it possible your initial report of the bug(s) in this area were also the result of kibitizing after finishing playing?

Thanks,

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com
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#84 User is offline   mink 

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Posted 2008-June-06, 15:09

fred, on Jun 6 2008, 06:22 PM, said:

Is it possible your initial report of the bug(s) in this area were also the result of kibitizing after finishing playing?

yes, very likely, thanks for the $$

Karl
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#85 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2008-June-06, 15:44

When you're watching a VuGraph, sometimes the box with the claim and final result disappears really quickly. I know I can see the result in the My Results section, but it's annoying when something pops up and disappears too quickly to see it.

#86 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2008-June-06, 16:03

fred, on Jun 6 2008, 08:41 AM, said:

Gerardo, on Jun 6 2008, 11:56 AM, said:

I _think_ BBOFlash does not use symbol.ttf (I know I don't have it around except for Wine).

That is correct. The only system font that BBOFlash uses is Arial.

Windows machines (and Macs I think) come with a unicode version of the Arial font that contains definitions for the suit symbols. Apparently the same is not true for all Linux machines.

I believe that the only place in BBOFlash where this matters is in the chat area. If you do not see suit symbols in chat where you should then you need to install a unicode Arial font that contains definitions for the suit symbols. Sorry but I know almost nothing about Linux so I am not in a position to recommend a place where you might find such a font.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

I googled for "arial unicode debian" and found some instructions for downloading and installing the font (it took a while, the server was in Brazil), so now it's working!

Although everything is really cramped on the 1024x768 screen on my Linux laptop, so I have to keep shrinking the chat font to be able to see a decent number of lines. I'll stick with my big Macs most of the time, I just wanted to see if I could get this to work.

#87 User is offline   fred 

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Posted 2008-June-06, 16:58

barmar, on Jun 6 2008, 10:03 PM, said:

fred, on Jun 6 2008, 08:41 AM, said:

Gerardo, on Jun 6 2008, 11:56 AM, said:

I _think_ BBOFlash does not use symbol.ttf (I know I don't have it around except for Wine).

That is correct. The only system font that BBOFlash uses is Arial.

Windows machines (and Macs I think) come with a unicode version of the Arial font that contains definitions for the suit symbols. Apparently the same is not true for all Linux machines.

I believe that the only place in BBOFlash where this matters is in the chat area. If you do not see suit symbols in chat where you should then you need to install a unicode Arial font that contains definitions for the suit symbols. Sorry but I know almost nothing about Linux so I am not in a position to recommend a place where you might find such a font.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

I googled for "arial unicode debian" and found some instructions for downloading and installing the font (it took a while, the server was in Brazil), so now it's working!

Although everything is really cramped on the 1024x768 screen on my Linux laptop, so I have to keep shrinking the chat font to be able to see a decent number of lines. I'll stick with my big Macs most of the time, I just wanted to see if I could get this to work.

You know you can make the chat area bigger?

Also try hitting F11.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com
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#88 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2008-June-07, 11:00

fred, on Jun 6 2008, 06:58 PM, said:

barmar, on Jun 6 2008, 10:03 PM, said:

Although everything is really cramped on the 1024x768 screen on my Linux laptop, so I have to keep shrinking the chat font to be able to see a decent number of lines.  I'll stick with my big Macs most of the time, I just wanted to see if I could get this to work.

You know you can make the chat area bigger?

Also try hitting F11.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

Yes, I played with different sizes. But if I make the chat area very tall, I end up with a short, squat playing area, and eventually it starts cutting off the bottom of the playing area.

The strange thing is that I just tried it on a 1024x768 Mac I have at home, and everything looks much better. Maybe it's because I'm mirroring the Linux laptop's 12-inch screen on a 20-inch monitor, so everything is out of proportion. I haven't found a way to configure spanning rather than mirroring on it (it's an IBM ThinkPad, I don't remember the model offhand).

#89 User is offline   Gerardo 

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Posted 2008-June-07, 12:14

There is an open bug for Flash Incorrect unicode input in linux.

As it says there, I can see Unicode but only from cut & paste, not from keyboard.

#90 User is offline   OrShoham 

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Posted 2008-June-07, 16:48

mink, on Jun 4 2008, 05:43 PM, said:

6. I liked the option that profiles are shown when I hover over a name. However, it would be even better if the profile is displayed as long I hover there and immediately removed when the mouse moves somewhere else, as it was in BBOWIN. And maybe try to display the profile so that it does not cover the area where the mouse points to.

I'd like to second the quoted suggestion and then some.

Currently, when I hover over a name, the loading process for the profile is fairly slow and fairly resource intensive (CPU cycles, in particular). The location of the popup appears to default to the right edge of the primary pane, where it blocks the "Join", "More", and "Description" fields of the table list (I would rather see it at the bottom of the right pane, where it takes up less valuable real estate). The time it takes for the popup to disappear after I remove my mouse is entirely too long by my standards. When coupled with the fact that the table list no longer auto-refreshes, this means that my original method of finding a game - mouse-hover over profiles of potential partners, find a profile I like, and sit down in a hurry - is no longer feasible. I'm not sure how many people prefer this method, but I'd certainly miss it.

Additionally, the same event / timer that governs the profile popup on mouse-over seems to take effect when I switch to the "Private Chat" tab. I'd much prefer to have the popup auto-pin when I switch to the private chat tab. Mouse-over popups no longer seem to work in the chat section, sadly.

Resource-wise, and especially memory-wise, BBOFlash is quite a hog. Simply getting to the login screen took up over 100MB(!) of RAM, and after a relatively minimal amount of use, ballooned to over 200MB(!!) - a full order of magnitude more than the EXE client used. This behavior persists across multiple browsers (FF2, FF3 RC1, and IE6) and is one I commonly associate with flash. Considering this box's specs (WinXP, 512 MB RAM, 2GHz CPU), the flash client is just too much to handle.

Insofar as the overall layout, I find it to be vastly improved over the old layout. It took me some time to find everything, but most things were placed in an intuitive location, so no real navigation issues. I dislike the white background on the home screen, but as I do not expect to be seeing it for extended periods of time, it's no big deal. Using the right pane for results is a vast improvement over the old client. The IMP scale on mouse-over for team match scores appears to have gone MIA in the flash client, nor did I find it anywhere else - am I looking in the wrong place?

One disappointment on the feature front - I was hoping the new BBO version would have a played-systems profile option. Allowing players to edit which bidding systems they play (For example, checkboxes for a half-dozen or so common bidding systems) would make seeking a game much more pleasant from my point of view. Currently, the lack of this feature is the reason I do not use "Take me to a game" when I want to play.
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#91 User is offline   hotShot 

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Posted 2008-June-09, 02:30

This is of cause not an error of the BBOflash application.

People using Firefox might be using plugin's like "Adblock" or "Orbit". These plugins add a tab to each flash object. Since the flash application uses 100% of the available space, these tabs cause scrollbars to appear.
So if a user has a configuration like that, he usually won't see the lower buttons or the line to enter chat, because they are covered by the lower scrollbar. I think the loss to the right scrollbar is less significant.

The only way to get rid of the scrollbars is to deactivate or even deinstall those features, before loading the application.

"Orbit" is available for the IE as well so the problem might occur there too.
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#92 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2008-June-11, 14:24

I guess that it is a deliberate policy, probably to reduce traffic, but I note that I cannot view the IDs of all players logged on in the lobby, unless they are already flagged as friends or are stars or are yellows. Maybe there is no need for it. But you could I suppose un-grey-out the "kibitzers" tab for displaying those names in lobby when you are in lobby. Probably this has already been discussed and dismissed in the previous 7 pages of this thread, so apologies if so.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"

"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
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#93 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2008-June-11, 14:59

I kib a table, and I get a pane in the right hand section that prompts me to select between tabs "who's online" and "my results". So far, so good. I select "my results". This opens up a second pane beneath it, ie in the bottom right corner, which displays the full hand that corresponds with the result displayed in the pane above it. Selecting a different table result gets me to see the line of play and bidding that gave rise to the selected table/result. All fine so far.

Now, say I leave the table, by clicking on the "back" button in the upper left quadrant of the screen.

I still see the results in the top right pane for the table that I have just vacated, and I see in the bottom right pane the full hand record for the last selected result in the top right pane.

Now, the bit that I don't much like, is that the software gives every appearance of allowing me to continue to select different tables/results from the selection displayed in the top right pane. However, selecting different rows in that pane does NOT result in the bottom right pane being updated. It works fine as long as I am still kibitzing at that table, but not when I am back in lobby.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"

"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
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#94 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2008-June-11, 22:45

1eyedjack, on Jun 11 2008, 04:59 PM, said:

I kib a table, and I get a pane in the right hand section that prompts me to select between tabs "who's online" and "my results". So far, so good. I select "my results". This opens up a second pane beneath it, ie in the bottom right corner, which displays the full hand that corresponds with the result displayed in the pane above it. Selecting a different table result gets me to see the line of play and bidding that gave rise to the selected table/result. All fine so far.

Now, say I leave the table, by clicking on the "back" button in the upper left quadrant of the screen.

I still see the results in the top right pane for the table that I have just vacated, and I see in the bottom right pane the full hand record for the last selected result in the top right pane.

Now, the bit that I don't much like, is that the software gives every appearance of allowing me to continue to select different tables/results from the selection displayed in the top right pane. However, selecting different rows in that pane does NOT result in the bottom right pane being updated. It works fine as long as I am still kibitzing at that table, but not when I am back in lobby.

I noticed something similar last week after playing in an ACBL speedball tourney. When it was over I still had my results displaying on the right side. I could click on any row and see the hand and play, EXCEPT for boards 7-9.

I didn't have a problem when I used My BBO to go to recent results, though.

#95 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2008-June-11, 22:49

Just upgraded to the June 11 beta. It looks like just about every option is now available from the Options button EXCEPT for "Show Played Cards". Why does this one option require me to go to a table and right-click? Is it because we can set it differently for kibitzing vs. reviewing hands?

And why is the default for this off? Are there really that many people who prefer not to see the played cards when kibbing?

Not a huge deal, as I'm still happy that I no longer have to deal with the BBOWin problem where this option turns itself off every time you become a player.

#96 User is offline   fred 

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Posted 2008-June-12, 06:16

1eyedjack, on Jun 11 2008, 08:24 PM, said:

I guess that it is a deliberate policy, probably to reduce traffic, but I note that I cannot view the IDs of all players logged on in the lobby, unless they are already flagged as friends or are stars or are yellows. Maybe there is no need for it. But you could I suppose un-grey-out the "kibitzers" tab for displaying those names in lobby when you are in lobby. Probably this has already been discussed and dismissed in the previous 7 pages of this thread, so apologies if so.

Yes this is deliberate - sorry if it is an inconvenience for those of you who like to be able to see a list of all members who are online. You are correct that this primary reasons for this design decision were:

1) To reduce traffic
2) We think (hope) that there is no real need for this function

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com
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#97 User is offline   fred 

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Posted 2008-June-12, 06:29

1eyedjack, on Jun 11 2008, 08:59 PM, said:

I kib a table, and I get a pane in the right hand section that prompts me to select between tabs "who's online" and "my results". So far, so good. I select "my results". This opens up a second pane beneath it, ie in the bottom right corner, which displays the full hand that corresponds with the result displayed in the pane above it. Selecting a different table result gets me to see the line of play and bidding that gave rise to the selected table/result. All fine so far.

Now, say I leave the table, by clicking on the "back" button in the upper left quadrant of the screen.

I still see the results in the top right pane for the table that I have just vacated, and I see in the bottom right pane the full hand record for the last selected result in the top right pane.

Now, the bit that I don't much like, is that the software gives every appearance of allowing me to continue to select different tables/results from the selection displayed in the top right pane. However, selecting different rows in that pane does NOT result in the bottom right pane being updated. It works fine as long as I am still kibitzing at that table, but not when I am back in lobby.

Right now the way it works for Main Bridge Club: if the hand was requested when you were at the table you will still be able to see it when you leave the table.

I agree it would be better if, after the leaving the table, you could also access hands that you had not looked at when you were at the table. I will add this to my list of things to do, but I doubt it will get done before our first official release. The main reason is that we need to stop changing the program so that we can test it properly and get it launched.

Don't worry - of course we know there is still plenty of room for improvement. This is almost certain to happen since BBOFlash is very likely to continue to be the main focus of my work for the next few years.

In theory, if you played a tourney or team match you should be able to access all of the hands (and travellers) after play is compete. The process that drives this has not been completely reliable during the past couple of months and there are also some timing issues involved (it sometimes takes a few seconds after the tournament ends before the play records are available). Most likely the board 7-9 problem that barmar described was caused by some machine on our end being slow.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com
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#98 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2008-June-12, 06:37

barmar, on Jun 11 2008, 11:49 PM, said:

Not a huge deal, as I'm still happy that I no longer have to deal with the BBOWin problem where this option turns itself off every time you become a player.

There's a very good reason why this is off when playing. It's an aid to memory, and thus not in accordance with the laws.
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#99 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2008-June-12, 21:56

TylerE, on Jun 12 2008, 08:37 AM, said:

barmar, on Jun 11 2008, 11:49 PM, said:

Not a huge deal, as I'm still happy that I no longer have to deal with the BBOWin problem where this option turns itself off every time you become a player.

There's a very good reason why this is off when playing. It's an aid to memory, and thus not in accordance with the laws.

Of course it's off WHILE playing. The problem that BBOWin has is that it stays that way when you go back to kibitzing. Fred has answered that it would be difficult to fix this in BBOWin.

BBOFlash gets it right: the setting is retained, and simply ignored while you're playing.

#100 User is offline   chicken 

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Posted 2008-June-13, 09:50

i missed the option to create a teaching table
i tried to load a teaching hand but didnt find a way to do this either
Kom kit´cha vangar´th, kin patakh´ch vananch, pargh?

If it´s not important to win, tell me, why do they keep records?

(Barcht, Captain of Nir`ch Tyse´th, Klingon Warship)



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