[ardf10987]

Playing with a very strong partner... very very very strong (just in case he is reading here...), as South you face this bidding problem:

Scoring: MP

West Nord East South
1♣.....1♥....2♥....pas
2NT...3♣...3NT...?

---

You can suppose playing against SAYC... What's 3♣ ?
You can obviously write answering all meaning you use in Nord for DBL, 3♣, 3♦, etc. BUT pools remains as stated.
I obviously picked fourth answer...

[pirate22]

a missed oppurtunity--i would have bid 2spades over opps 2 hts,,so pards 3cl agree's ? but your opp rescued you, having not bid spades,so one has to pass 3n/t

[ArtK78]

3♣ shows clubs.

And I would never bid 2♠ over RHO's 2♥ on these cards. That is a good way to go for a very large number.

[jdonn]

ArtK78, on Nov 14 2008, 12:38 PM, said:

3♣ shows clubs.

2♥ is a club raise. 3♣ really shows clubs after they are bid and raised?

[ArtK78]

If 2♥ is a club raise (and no one said that it was) then it makes some sense for 3♣ being a cue bid. For what? Must be a strong one-suited hand with a willingness to play 3NT if partner is so inclined.

If 2♥ is just your usual warm-and-fuzzy cue bid, then 3♣ is clubs.

It is also possible that RHO has a club raise and that partner has a real club suit. LHO has 3 small clubs - RHO has 4 clubs to at most one honor - partner has 5 very good clubs.

In my opinion, 3♣ should show clubs on this auction.

[jdonn]

ArtK78, on Nov 14 2008, 01:36 PM, said:

If 2♥ is a club raise (and no one said that it was)

ardf10987, on Nov 14 2008, 11:56 AM, said:

You can suppose playing against SAYC

For sure I am no authority on SAYC, but I would be willing to wager that it defines the cuebid as a limit raise or better in support of partner's suit, be it a minor or a major. But in any case that meaning is so universal that I would never assume anything else.

[cherdano]

ArtK78, on Nov 14 2008, 12:36 PM, said:

If 2♥ is a club raise (and no one said that it was) then it makes some sense for 3♣ being a cue bid. For what? Must be a strong one-suited hand with a willingness to play 3NT if partner is so inclined.

If 2♥ is just your usual warm-and-fuzzy cue bid, then 3♣ is clubs.

It is also possible that RHO has a club raise and that partner has a real club suit. LHO has 3 small clubs - RHO has 4 clubs to at most one honor - partner has 5 very good clubs.

In my opinion, 3♣ should show clubs on this auction.

The warm-and-fuzzy cuebid would be very unusual indeed. (You may be confusing this with a cuebid by the partner of overcaller.)
Even if you have 5 clubs, why would you want to show them when you know the opponents have 7 of them? Trying to find your 5-1 club fit?

[Hanoi5]

Would a double by partner be take-out? I don't think so. So maybe 3♣ is some sort of a take out...

[ArtK78]

Why wouldn't a double be for takeout? Would you really want to double 2NT for penalties in the middle of a forward-going auction? Yes, 2NT might be passed out. But is that so bad?

If you held:

A
QJTxxx
x
KQJTx

and you heard this auction, do you think it is right to pass over 2NT? Surely LHO is going to bid one of the pointed suits now. Why can you not bid your hand naturally at this point?

[jdonn]

ArtK78, on Nov 14 2008, 02:05 PM, said:

Why wouldn't a double be for takeout? Would you really want to double 2NT for penalties in the middle of a forward-going auction? Yes, 2NT might be passed out. But is that so bad?

If you held:

A
QJTxxx
x
KQJTx

and you heard this auction, do you think it is right to pass over 2NT? Surely LHO is going to bid one of the pointed suits now. Why can you not bid your hand naturally at this point?

Your partner has an awful hand with nothing but spades and diamonds, and the opponents strongly bid and raised your second suit, and bid notrump. Please think about what you are saying...

[keylime]

For me, I think the key bid of 2NT dissuades me from thinking anything else but natural for this sequence. So what if LHO cuebid, how would you show a good heart-club hand naturally?

For the hand given in question, I'm very tempted to smack it around due to the bad splits declarer is going to deal with.

[ardf10987]

Just to give you, as usual and for history, the result. Very very very strong p happened to have opposite:

Scoring: MP

West Nord East South
1♣.....1♥....2♥....pas
2NT...3♣...3NT...?

---

So for him I SHOULD HAVE BID 4♣ (pretending to play his second suit), and he would have bid 4♥, so showing 6♥ and 4♠...

Just now one thing is sure for me... I understand why I rarely play with very very very strong people...

[lexlogan]

jdonn, on Nov 14 2008, 06:39 PM, said:

ArtK78, on Nov 14 2008, 01:36 PM, said:

If 2♥ is a club raise (and no one said that it was)

ardf10987, on Nov 14 2008, 11:56 AM, said:

You can suppose playing against SAYC

For sure I am no authority on SAYC, but I would be willing to wager that it defines the cuebid as a limit raise or better in support of partner's suit, be it a minor or a major. But in any case that meaning is so universal that I would never assume anything else.

For questions about SAYC, it's a good idea to consult the SAYC system booklet. Go to www.acbl.org and search for SAYC. Under the section "Competitive bidding": "Cue-bidding right-hand opponent's suit shows values for game without clear direction for the moment. This is often used to show a game-forcing raise:
1♠-(2♣)-3♣ = game force; usually a raise."

So 1♣-(1♥)-2♥ could be a general game force, with perhaps length but no stopper in hearts. A fit for clubs is likely but not guaranteed; Kxx xxxx AQxx Ax, for example. It is thus entirely possible for North-South to have a good club fit with a favorable split. 3♣ sounds like clubs to me, unless the opps assure me 2♥ promises clubs.

[jdonn]

It's game forcing? Ok it's official, I'm even worse at SAYC than I thought! Somehow that doesn't bother me though.

[vuroth]

It's one of those parts of the SAYC booklet that I've never seen anybody play.