[cherdano]

jdonn, on Nov 17 2008, 10:47 AM, said:

Wow I'm shocked here, at least at the first one. It's an artificial bid, and they only have clubs 1/4 of the time. Using it to show clubs is both more frequent than takeout and fits better into generic bidding rules (double artificial bid). Takeout wouldn't really even have occured to me.

If they don't have clubs, a takeout double isn't useless of course - it could also be called "penalty interest".

This is similar to 1N (2♣) X. If 2♣ was natural, this is stayman, i.e. showing a major. If 2♣ was majors, doubles shows penalty interest, i.e. showing a major.

[peachy]

1. Shows clubs, suggests penalty
2. Shows max pass and ability to play 2CX if opener has no objection
3. Penalty

I understand other AGREEMENTS, like *cards* double or *negative* over their direct interference are possible but the above (for me) seems like normal without agreements.

[655321]

I don't agree that most hands suitable for a takeout double of 2♣ would have bid garbage Stayman. For me, a double of 2♣ won't be a singleton (almost always a doubleton), a balanced hand, and will have enough values to compete. I would always pass 1NT with these hands, never garbage Stayman.

Both these doubles (1) and (2) are partscore battles - we have already passed 1NT. So all we are trying to do is go plus. If we can't double 2♣ because we have club length and they they don't have clubs, then perhaps one of us can double their suit for takeout when they bid it. If we both have length in their suit, we pass them out, collect some 50's or 100's, and have not been robbed of a game.

I can only think of 2 possible risks to playing takeout doubles. Opener does have to back in with shortage, and on a bad day does catch partner with nothing. Or, when somebody doubles for takeout, you might land in a 4-3 fit at the 3 level. And usually, it is only a disaster if you get the combination of these 2 things. Far more commonly it is a normal partscore battle where you find a playable spot, or get to double them.

I am not claiming that playing double as takeout is best - I almost always play it as takeout so I lack experience to compare it to penalty/values - but I do claim that it is a good method that works in practice.

[jdonn]

655321, on Nov 17 2008, 08:02 PM, said:

I don't agree that most hands suitable for a takeout double of 2♣ would have bid garbage Stayman.

Who are you not agreeing with? I never said that.

Quote

If we can't double 2♣ because we have club length and they they don't have clubs, then perhaps one of us can double their suit for takeout when they bid it.

Yes, perhaps. Or perhaps you can't. Or perhaps after doubling 2♣ you can double for takeout later and thus give an even better picture. Or perhaps partner, who is about to be on lead after all, just wants to know what to lead.

Quote

I can only think of 2 possible risks to playing takeout doubles. Opener does have to back in with shortage, and on a bad day does catch partner with nothing. Or, when somebody doubles for takeout, you might land in a 4-3 fit at the 3 level.

Firstly, you are again arguing with points not made. I never said that if you hold a takeout double hand and are playing takeout doubles that doubling is at all risky.

Secondly, you are ignorring the main reason not to. I'll say it until I am blue in the face. They will not have clubs 75% of the time. That 75% of the time (or more, because many people would have bid garbage stayman on SOME of the hands where they would want to double 2♣) you will very likely not have a takeout double. So you are playing a method that will give you almost no mileage. It's much more likely you have clubs than that you have a takeout double of clubs!

[655321]

jdonn, on Nov 17 2008, 08:17 PM, said:

655321, on Nov 17 2008, 08:02 PM, said:

I don't agree that most hands suitable for a takeout double of 2♣ would have bid garbage Stayman.

Who are you not agreeing with? I never said that.

Hey, relax! I was giving my opinion in response to these posts. To make my previous post more clear, I should perhaps reword it to say "Under no circumstances, ever, would a hand suitable for a takeout double of 2♣ have bid Garbage Stayman. Ever. Because a takeout double shows a balanced hand, doubleton club and values, i.e. a hand that would always pass 1NT."

helene_t, on Nov 17 2008, 12:15 PM, said:

And most hands suitable for a t/o on clubs would have used garbage stayman.

jdonn, on Nov 17 2008, 12:34 PM, said:

Another difference is many "takeout of club" hands have already bid garbage stayman, so on frequency grounds takeout seems really really wrong.

Quote

Quote

I can only think of 2 possible risks to playing takeout doubles. Opener does have to back in with shortage, and on a bad day does catch partner with nothing. Or, when somebody doubles for takeout, you might land in a 4-3 fit at the 3 level.

Firstly, you are again arguing with points not made. I never said that if you hold a takeout double hand and are playing takeout doubles that doubling is at all risky.

Hey, chill dude! There is a reason these forums are not called the Josh Bidding Forums!

mikeh, on Nov 17 2008, 12:16 PM, said:

.. using double as takeout is aiming at a small target.... and puts far, far too much pressure on partner to reopen with his 4=3=4=2 16 count.. I mean, why should he? Maybe his RHO is sitting there with a 21 count.

Quote

Secondly, you are ignorring the main reason not to. I'll say it until I am blue in the face. They will not have clubs 75% of the time. That 75% of the time (or more, because many people would have bid garbage stayman on SOME of the hands where they would want to double 2♣) you will very likely not have a takeout double. So you are playing a method that will give you almost no mileage. It's much more likely you have clubs than that you have a takeout double of clubs!

Fair enough.

[rogerclee]

han, on Nov 17 2008, 11:32 AM, said:

I agree with Adam, it may not be perfect but playing all such doubles as TO makes it much easier to remember.

I play doubling 1♣ = 16+ as takeout of clubs for the same reason.

[jdonn]

655321, on Nov 17 2008, 08:50 PM, said:

Hey, relax!
...
Hey, chill dude!

You look like the hyper one here, I didn't use any exclamation points. Why didn't you just say "It was Helene and MikeH I was not agreeing with"? After all, all I did was ask.

If I make a petition to change the name to the Josh Bidding Forums, will you sign?

[cherdano]

"Hey relax" with an exclamation mark is not hyper.
(Note I used no exclamation mark up there!)

[benlessard]

All penalty here. With a hand short in clubs you would have made a garbage stayman anyway. The only remaining hands are 5D and 4M but with those you can bid 2D anyway.

Imo it make sense that

1Nt----(2D)------X is TO
but with

1Nt----(2M)----- X is much better played a penalty/optionnal even many expert play neg X here.

[han]

rogerclee, on Nov 17 2008, 09:09 PM, said:

han, on Nov 17 2008, 11:32 AM, said:

I agree with Adam, it may not be perfect but playing all such doubles as TO makes it much easier to remember.

I play doubling 1♣ = 16+ as takeout of clubs for the same reason.

Usually you are funnier than this.

[pclayton]

pclayton, on Nov 16 2008, 06:25 PM, said:

A few interesting doubles came up today in the NAOP Unit qualifying. I'd be curious what you think what they mean? :

1. 1N - pass - pass - double (DONT);
pass - 2♣ (forced, sort of) - double?

This was the 1st one. He had clubs. We agreed later it should be takeout. I disagree (if anyone is asserting otherwise - I'm not really sure) that garbage stayman hands rule out a TOx here. I could easily be 4432 or something.

The alternative to double being takeout is that in order to compete you have to bid a four card diamond suit or major.

It didn't matter much; the opponents stepped in it. RHO bid 2♦ on Axxxxx of diamonds and some scattered cards and I doubled on a prime 16 and ♦KJT9; his partner ran back to 3♣ with ♣JT8xxx. +500

Quote

2. 1N - pass - pass - double (penalty);
pass - 2♣ (running) - double?

We talked this over afterward. They make a penalty double, and when the weak hand runs, doubles are penalty. The puller had a bust with JTxx of clubs. +150 was still pretty good.

Quote

3. 1N - 2♥ - double. What is the worst hand you will have for a x here?

We've specifically agreed that a max double is an NT invite with 4 spades. A min double IMO should advertise roughly a 20-20 deck with four spades. I doubled on ♠KJxx and a dub heart. He doubled 3♥ on little more than ♥AJx and ♣AKQxx (after he bid 2N over my double - is that scrambling or to play for you?)-730.

Our motivation for competing isn't to punish our opponents. Its to get to a playable partial, although I tend to think that when we have spades and they have hearts, that double is OK on a hand this weak.

[655321]

jdonn, on Nov 17 2008, 09:18 PM, said:

If I make a petition to change the name to the Josh Bidding Forums, will you sign?

Sounds great!
Where do I sign?

[benlessard]

Quote

I could easily be 4432

If you play the full garbage stayman

1Nt-----2C-----2D------2H (weak with both M) its still ok to make GS here. If you dont 4432 is the only hand where GS isnt available. An insignificant lost compared to all the hands with 5-6♣.

On top of that i hope you realized opps going to have clubs about 30-33% of the times.

[cherdano]

benlessard, on Nov 17 2008, 11:50 PM, said:

Quote

I could easily be 4432

If you play the full garbage stayman

1Nt-----2C-----2D------2H (weak with both M) its still ok to make GS here. If you dont 4432 is the only hand where GS isnt available. An insignificant lost compared to all the hands with 5-6♣.

On top of that i hope you realized opps going to have clubs about 30-33% of the times.

You bid garbage stayman with 4342?
The only time I ever used it with 4432 was at matchpoints.

[benlessard]

You bid garbage stayman with 4342?

As long as i hold 2 small club im pretty sure its the correct % (play assuming 1Nt may easily have a 5cM and that im not heavy enough to be sure 1Nt makes).