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How to reach a slam

#1 User is offline   OSH 

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Posted 2004-April-28, 02:06

West
KQJ2
JT98
Qx
Kxx

East
A8765
6
AKxxx
Ax

1) South (dealer) opens 2H (weak).
How should West and East bid now?

2) How should West and East bid if West is dealer (with silent opponents)?

3) How should West and East bid if East is dealer (with silent opponents)?

I play SAYC with some gadgets, but your suggestion will be welcome with any system.
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#2 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2004-April-28, 03:20

1) I think W should pass. East is slightly too weak for a 3 bid, but 2 is forcing imo. Dbl is out of the question with such 2-suited hand.
(2) - pass - pass - 2
pass - 4 - pass - 5
pass - 6 - all pass

According to LTC you have 12 combined losers after the 4 raise, so that's slam area. 5 asks about trump quality, and it's a clear 6 bid here. East has to wonder where the s are, and partner MUST have some, so he's short in one or both minors.

2) West starts with pass, I don't consider this as an opening hand: too many losers, and with both Majors you'll still get in the bidding...
pass - 1
4 - 5
6 - pass
OR
pass - 1
2NT - ...
... - 5
6 - pass

Same stuff with the losers and trump quality again.

If however you would open with the West hand (Zar points consider this as an opening), the bidding would go something like this for me:
1 - 1
1 - 1
2 - 4NT
5 - 5
6 - 6

1 = round force
2 = 4s
5 = 1/4 keycards
6 = Q and (K OR K+K)

3) Since West passes, same as 2).

It's always East which has to go for slam, not West. He knows he has only 5 losers, and partner supports so he has 7 losers (extra trump distracts a loser).
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Posted 2004-April-28, 10:47

West
♠KQJ2
♥JT98
♦Qx
♣Kxx

East
♠A8765
♥6
♦AKxxx
♣Ax

> 1) South (dealer) opens 2H (weak).
> How should West and East bid now?

S - W - N - E
2-P-P-4 (where 4 = leaping michels showing and
P-4-P-5NT
P-6-Pass

4 = last train to clarksville (general slam try, not specific cue-bid
5NT = pick slam
6 = spades.

> 2) How should West and East bid if West is dealer (with silent opponents)?

1 - 2NT (limit raise or better or jacoby, which ever you play)
3 - 3 (3 = short, 3NT = serious 3NT, 4 = cue bid)
3NT - 4
4NT - key cards then bid slam

> 3) How should West and East bid if East is dealer (with silent opponents)?

1 - 1
2 - 4NT --> Keycards then slam.
--Ben--

#4 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2004-April-28, 19:39

I supose I didn´t talk about 4 being last trrain on this deal, so I ll just bid this way in a good day:


2-p-p-4 (leaping michales)
p-5-p-6


5 = I lack of their suit control ().

on a normal or bad day I´ll simply play 4 I supose.
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Posted 2004-April-29, 08:32

If you have a problem getting to this slam, i suspect that its not a system problem, but more of a hand valuation problem.
West hand is a minimum opening and east hand is exactly what you need for a smal slam vs a minimum opening. on any system, if west can show spade support and opening value , east should take this to 6sp.
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Posted 2004-April-29, 09:20

Fluffy, on Apr 28 2004, 08:39 PM, said:

I supose I didn´t talk about 4 being last trrain on this deal, so I ll just bid this way in a good day:

I doubt one in 500 play this 4 as last train. I think it should be, but I like the concept of the "game try double" as a game try on auctions like 1-(2-2-(3)-DBL. When playing those, the bidding 1-(2-2-(3)-? ? Now double is "optional" and 3 is artificial game try, and 3 is to play. The use of a free bid between the agreed upon trump suit as a game try has been very helpful. I have extended this analogy to higher competition using LTTC. As a general rule, trump agreement must be assured before using LTTC, but the specific auction given here, the 4 bidder, who couldn't bid over 2, clearly agrees with one or the other suits. So I greatly prefer this to be LTTC bid (agreeing one, or the other of the two suits as trumps).

Quote

2-p-p-4 (leaping michales)
p-5-p-6

5 = I lack of their suit control ().  on a normal or bad day I´ll simply play 4 I supose.


This is an excellent choice. The implication here is looking for a stopper (although some might play this as looking for "good" trumps, so make sure you and your partner are on the same page). I would hate, however to have punished a creative partner for bidding 4 on a hand like AT9xx xx KJTxxx A, where you are down one off the top in 5, or a hand like AT9xx x KJT9x AQ where he will continue to slam, where you are off two cashable aces. With the first possible hand, over 4, partner would bid 4 and your hand would give. Wtith the second, partner would bid blackwood, and then retreat safely to 5. Using the jump to 5, you will be down one in 5 or 6 respectively. And with the actual hand given partner in the problem, he would continue over 4 as he has a great balancing 4 hand.

At least give some thought to the concept that LTTC would apply here. Some of you, if you do think about it, might adopt this bid. It seems to work well for me in difficult hands, where you don't quite have enough to force to slam, but you have too much to feel comforatable simply bidding your sure game.

Ben
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#7 User is offline   Trpltrbl 

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Posted 2004-April-29, 13:29

First case; West passes, East bids 3, West 4, East 4NT and off to slam we go.

Second/ Third case; West passes, east openes 1, West bid 2 (4card Limit raise in ), East 3(good hand, suit), West 4(cuebid),East 4(cuebid), West 4, East 4 NT(RKC) and we end up in 6.

Mike :(
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so much the better. If there is restlessness, I am pleased. Then let there
be ideas, and hard thought, and hard work.”
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#8 User is offline   Trpltrbl 

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Posted 2004-April-29, 13:33

Free, on Apr 28 2004, 04:20 AM, said:

If however you would open with the West hand (Zar points consider this as an opening)

This is not an opening in ZARpoints, only 24 ZARpoints. Need 26 to open.

Mike :(
“If there is dissatisfaction with the status quo, good. If there is ferment,
so much the better. If there is restlessness, I am pleased. Then let there
be ideas, and hard thought, and hard work.”
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#9 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2004-April-29, 15:41

right, miscounted :D
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Posted 2004-April-29, 15:48

Free, on Apr 29 2004, 04:41 PM, said:

right, miscounted :D

Didn't miscount by much. When holding four 's, all you need is 25 Zar points.... :-)

Ben
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#11 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2004-April-29, 16:08

inquiry, on Apr 28 2004, 01:47 PM, said:

West
♠KQJ2
♥JT98
♦Qx
♣Kxx

East
♠A8765
♥6
♦AKxxx
♣Ax

> 1) South (dealer) opens 2H (weak).
> How should West and East bid now?

S - W - N - E
2-P-P-4 (where 4 = leaping michels showing and
P-4-P-5NT
P-6-Pass

4 = last train to clarksville (general slam try, not specific cue-bid
5NT = pick slam
6 = spades.

Ben,

What is your minimum requirement for leaping Michael's?

Is 4 forcing?

TIA
Wayne Burrows

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Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

#12 User is offline   hallway 

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Posted 2004-April-29, 17:00

Leaping Michaels (not you I hope Jake !?)

Last trains (should beginner's be out that late ?)

LTTC's

ZAR points

My word Beginners are expanding their horizons fast these days - !!
Maureen
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Join on BIL Bridge
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#13 User is offline   Flame 

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Posted 2004-April-29, 18:06

Trpltrbl, on Apr 29 2004, 02:33 PM, said:

Free, on Apr 28 2004, 04:20 AM, said:

If however you would open with the West hand (Zar points consider this as an opening)

This is not an opening in ZARpoints, only 24 ZARpoints. Need 26 to open.

Mike :D

The Zar point artical ,advice to open when you have an high card opening regardless of having 26 zar points, so this is an opening according to the Zar point.
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#14 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2004-April-29, 18:21

I still consider 13HCP the minimum opening based on pure HCP. So 12 is not enough :D
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#15 User is offline   mishovnbg 

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Posted 2004-April-29, 18:38

Cascade, on Apr 30 2004, 12:08 AM, said:

inquiry, on Apr 28 2004, 01:47 PM, said:

West
♠KQJ2
♥JT98
♦Qx
♣Kxx

East
♠A8765
♥6
♦AKxxx
♣Ax

> 1) South (dealer) opens 2H (weak).
> How should West and East bid now?

S - W - N - E
2-P-P-4 (where 4 = leaping michels showing and
P-4-P-5NT
P-6-Pass

4 = last train to clarksville (general slam try, not specific cue-bid
5NT = pick slam
6 = spades.

Ben,

What is your minimum requirement for leaping Michael's?

Is 4 forcing?

TIA

Hi Dwayne!
Because 2NT include NF 2 suiters with 4 is RF and show 4-losers, suitable for hand in example, because 3A more than Q mean 41/3 losers. Don't remember to Ben please about "free" leaping michaels, hehe
Misho
MishoVnBg
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Posted 2004-April-29, 18:50

Free, on Apr 29 2004, 07:21 PM, said:

I still consider 13HCP the minimum opening based on pure HCP. So 12 is not enough :D

Zar just advice to bid with balance hand like you would bid if you never heard of zar points, if it takes 13 hcp then ok, i think most bid with 12 these days.
I pass most 4333 12 hcp but bid almost every 4432 12 hcp.
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#17 User is offline   mishovnbg 

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Posted 2004-April-29, 19:05

OSH, on Apr 28 2004, 10:06 AM, said:

West
KQJ2
JT98
Qx
Kxx

East
A8765
6
AKxxx
Ax

1) South (dealer) opens 2H (weak).
How should West and East bid now?

2) How should West and East bid if West is dealer (with silent opponents)?

3) How should West and East bid if East is dealer (with silent opponents)?

I play SAYC with some gadgets, but your suggestion will be welcome with any system.

Welcome to BBO forum OSH!
I will demonstrate you my NTC system, you can find it at Daniel's page, as well as many good systems:
http://www.geocities.../sys/index.html

1)4...

2)NTC

1{11-15 bal/10-17 nat} - 2{game or slam try, 5+-5+}
2{min} - 3{game or slam try, 5+)
4{accept game try} - 5{odd KC, was slam try hand}
6{KC and Q enough for slam}

3)NTC

1{10-17, 5+} - 2NT{inv+, fit}
3{max, singleton/void} - 3{Relay}
4{4+} - 4{NAB - spiral scan}
4{C, 0/AK - 4NT{NAB}
5{C, deny void } - 6

Misho
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Posted 2004-April-30, 07:16

Flame, on Apr 29 2004, 09:32 AM, said:

If you have a problem getting to this slam, i suspect that its not a system problem, but more of a hand valuation problem.

Thanks to you all.
I agree that it is mainly a problem of hand evaluation, expecially for East.
Still I'm not sure if it is so easy to bid 6s for me....
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Posted 2004-April-30, 07:41

OSH, on Apr 30 2004, 08:16 AM, said:

Flame, on Apr 29 2004, 09:32 AM, said:

If you have a problem getting to this slam, i suspect that its not a system problem, but more of a hand valuation problem.

Thanks to you all.
I agree that it is mainly a problem of hand evaluation, expecially for East.
Still I'm not sure if it is so easy to bid 6s for me....

Its a matter of expirence.
I'll tell you the basic secret,
When you have a nice distribution like that what you need to do is picture partner's hand, what you are usually looking for is an example for super minimum hand but one that fits well with your own hand, then you see what these combination gives you, if this takes you to slam, then you say, if this superminimum but fit perfectly got me to slam, then a lil stronger but not fits that perfect will give me a slam too.
now to practice.
you had
♠A8765
♥6
AKxxx
♣Ax

lets say partner open 1c you bid 1sp and partner rasie to 2sp.
now what good cards do we want in partner's hand ?
K of spade
A of heart
K of club
this has small slam with chances of grand.
or
KQ of spade and K of club (Q of diamond or doublton might help too)
those 3 cards will give us a nice small slam.
even as little as
KXXX
XXXX
XX
XXX
have chance to slam if the suits breaks very well [2-2 spade and 3-3 diamond]
So wityh only 10 right points you have a slam ,you can imagine that with 13-14 hcp you will have a slam even if not all those points are prefect.
This doesnt mean that you shoot to slam right away, but you should see the potential and try to check it.
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#20 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2004-April-30, 11:02

Hey Ben:

I see a hidden danger for Last train on this deal: partner can have difficulties to evaluate because he doesn´t know if trumps are or , I supose both can be handled someway if you want (5 LTTC with fit) but tat is even harder to have talked about unless you played for about 8-10 years already.


I said bidding 5 is askign for control is an overbid I wouldn´t normally do, mainly because of lack of Aces.
But I don,´t agree with your examples: you can play light leaping michaels, but only on direct seat (I would use on both examples on direct seat as well), on 4th sit opponents are really likelly to bid pass the rest of the bidding, you are prenty of space to reopen with just 2, and maybe later bid 3/4, so a 4 bid on 4th should be a hand where you have about 9 tricks yourself when there is fit.


BTW: to quote twice in same post you just use the keywords of quote 'manually'?
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