[1eyedjack]

bhtf, on Jun 10 2004, 08:25 AM, said:

1C-1M-1NT-2C puppet-2D-Pass is an elegant way to play comfortably
2D with 5-4 D-M, but ..... but my oponents never let me in this contract !

That (ability to play in 2D) is not the reason for using 2C as a puppet to 2D ... it is simply a fringe benefit that you can take advantage of. The principal reason for the method is to increase the number of hands that you can describe in total.

In fact there are some bad hands for the system, namely weak 2-suiters ... unless one of your suits is Hearts (in my method) you have to pick a suit without giving opener the choice. It is a price I am prepared to pay for the other benefits.

The rest of your post looked interesting, but lost something in the translation, I feel. Anyway, I did not understand much of it. Sorry.

[Free]

I don't really like the 2♦ GF stayman and 2♣ puppet for 2♦, because you can do as much with a modified extended stayman, and you keep transfers to 'rightside' the contract. Playing 2♦ vs Garbage Stayman, I chose Garbage Stayman. But with 2♦GF stayman you can ofcourse rightside the contract more (letting the asker play), I've discussed this already with Jimmy

[1eyedjack]

Free, on Jun 10 2004, 01:19 PM, said:

I don't really like the 2♦ GF stayman and 2♣ puppet for 2♦, because you can do as much with a modified extended stayman, and you keep transfers to 'rightside' the contract. Playing 2♦ vs Garbage Stayman, I chose Garbage Stayman. But with 2♦GF stayman you can ofcourse rightside the contract more (letting the asker play), I've discussed this already with Jimmy

The declaration of most denominations (3 of the 5 anyway, and the 3 most likely, at that) has already been established by the 1N rebid. I don't see this as an issue, in terms of the justification of transfers. The other benefits of transfers/puppets remain unchanged.

I agree that 2♦ as GF stayman does not sound sensible. Hence I include the invitational hands as well in there.

[luke warm]

Free, on Jun 10 2004, 08:19 PM, said:

I don't really like the 2♦ GF stayman and 2♣ puppet for 2♦, because you can do as much with a modified extended stayman, and you keep transfers to 'rightside' the contract. Playing 2♦ vs Garbage Stayman, I chose Garbage Stayman. But with 2♦GF stayman you can ofcourse rightside the contract more (letting the asker play), I've discussed this already with Jimmy

and if you noticed, i implemented some of your suggestions

i really do like 2♦ as gf over weak/mini nt, but i think we're talking about 2♦ as gf part of 2 way ckback... i haven't yet seen any convincing arguments against using it, or in using 2♣ as a way to garbage OR invite

[bhtf]

agree w you all, that last postage was not in good health ! lol
hoping more readable

1C-1S-1NT
2C inv or more check back, only on H 4 investigation, 3 steps
2D weak or strong check back, only on H 4, 2 steps
2H : 55 M, weak
2S inv relay (or slam) for 2N min/ others max.
2N-3C : min 6+, weak or slam.
3m : good six cards, inv
3H : AKQxxx in C or D
3S : AKQxxx in S

1) weaks hands
Pass : no M 5, no m 6.
2H............................. 55 majors
2D-2H(H 4)-Pass......... 54 majors
2D-2H(H 4)-2S............ S 5+ no H 4
2D-2S-Pass................ S 5+ with or no H 4
2N-3C-Pass or 3D....... C 6+, D 6+, S 4

2) invitationals hands (limits in my words)
3S : AKQxxx no side entry
3H : AKQxxx minor no side entry. if 3S relay : 3N = C, 4C = D
3m : good six cards minor (HHxxxx) and something else by force.
2S : no M 5. Then 2N mini/ others maxi (3N in fact in 90% appening)
2S-2N-2m : bads 6+ (5 perhaps) to not play in 2NT
2C with S 5+, and H 4+ or not. 2S = H 4 max, 2H = H 4 min, 2D others.
2C-2S FG. Resp is able to use strongs bids after 2C (2N & more)
2C-2S-4H for play. 2C-2S-4D transf for 4H.
2C-2D-2H : 55 major inv. 2C-2D-2S : S 5+ inv.
2C-2H-Pass : 54 major. 2C-2H-2S : S 5+ no H 4
2C-2H-3D : H 4+ fit inv or slamish. op then : 3H mini/3S maxi.
w 55+ major inv, responder on 2C-2H can bid 3D or (reds) go directly to 4H.

3) game and more hands
3N, 4S : directs games.
2N-3C-3H ©, 2N-3C-3S (D) : min 6+ slamish, for ctrls (cues for slam)
2N-3C-4C ©, 2N-3C-4D (D) : min 6+ slamish, RKCB w first step minimum.
[1C-1S with S 4 and D 6+ slam is not very usual ! but poss in this sys]
2S and then 4C is gerber. 4N quantitative is not in the sys.
2D-2H-4H : 54 or 55 majors, game.
2D-2H-3N : S 5 no H 4, game
2D-2S-3N : S 5 w/no H4, game
2D-2S-3D : S 5 & H 5, game
2D-2x-2N : S 5+ & C 4+, slam
2D-2x-3C : S 5+ & D 4+, slam
2D-2x-3H : S 6+, slam
2D-2x-3S(H), 4C, 4D : local void with S 6+, slam
2C then 2N and more.

4) 2C and strongs bids
3N, 4H, 4S : for play
3S : void/single in C, game or more
3H : S 5, slam
3D : H 4+ fit inv or slam, if op no H 4 : 55+ major slam.
3C : void/single other than C, game or more
2N : shape relay, game or more

5) 2N relay for shortage : helping in choice of game (avoid 3NT
with common shortness for minor game or moysian major one)
and eventual slam in minor. after 4C & 4D are fixing minor trump
and RKCB with first step mini (for minor or NT slam)
the machinery is all in first opener response of is shortness :
3C = short S, 3D = short H, 3H = 4333, 3S = short D, 3N = short C.
an ugly bid (short in H 4 for exemple) = exotic shape 5422.

1C-1S-1N-2C-2D-2N-3C : 2335
...............................3D : 3235
...............................3H : 3334
...............................3S : 3325
...............................3N : 2245 (ugly)
1C-1S-1N-2C-2M-2N-3C : 2434
...............................3D : 2425 (ugly)
...............................3H : 3433
...............................3S : 3424
...............................3N : ----- (ugly)

[mikestar]

For those that are comfortable with 4 point ranges for 1NT a very intriguing variant of this idea:

1N= 11-14
1D, followed by minimum NT = 15-18
1C, followed by minimum NT = 19-22
2C, followed by NT rebid=23+

Strong NT lovers can invert the first two steps. 10-point NT lovers can play it a point weaker.

The disavantage is the modest loss of accuracy due to the wider range. The advantage is that not only are your 2N openings free for you premptive system, but opener's jump NT rebids are available for other uses. For example 1D-1S-2NT could be a three card spade raise too strong for 2S (Bridge World Hand of Death).

The 1C - mininum NT sequence will get you to the wrong spot now and again when responder is very weak -- especially if opened with a five card major. But against that you will get some tops too. Lets say you have xx xxx xxx xxxxx--you pass 1C and make it while the field is going down in 2N. Let's say it goes 1C-1H-1N-P (you bid 1H on a subminimum with short clubs) and you make 1N instead of down 1 in 2N or go down 1 less than the field.

Starting a 22 point hand at 1N leaves a lot more room to look for slam when responder has some cards, too.

[luke warm]

you've given me tons to think about.. old habits die hard though... does this method take away from the liklihood of finding minor suit fits?

oops sorry, just reread your original post... back to thinking, but this sure looks nice

added by edit: mike, how does this change if you have diff range for mini when vulnerable or in 4th seat? say 13-15 at those time... just pass all balanced 12 counts?

oh, and of course everything is now alertable, even 1M... so 1C alerted as "balanced 16-18 or 20-21 hcp or unbalanced with clubs" right? and 1D 'balanced 13-15 or 19-20 hcp or unbalanced with diamonds'

[luke warm]

here's one from today, zia and michael n/s hamman/soloway e/w and it gives a look at what mikestar was talking about

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     -     -     1NT
 Pass  2♦    Pass  2♥
 Pass  Pass  Dbl   Pass
 2♠    Dbl   Pass  3♥
 Pass  Pass  Pass  

forget the vulnerability for a moment (to keep a 10-12 mini nt assumption)... from mike's posts, south opens 1D (13-15 or 19,20 balanced OR diamonds if unbalanced)... north bids 1H, south 1nt showing 13-15 (assuming south doesn't bid 2H, which is a big assumption).. now what does north do, playing the structure mike recommended? if 2c, south would probably go to game because it's viewed as invitational... so 2c : 2d : 2h invite with 5 and i think they'd be at 4H off 2... so i think north does better to bid 2H to play over the 1nt, which happens to make on this hand...

how does this hand fit in with the 1c/d nt range thingy?

[Free]

So you always want to show first your HCP range and the fact that you're balanced, without knowing anything else about the distribution?? At first thought I don't like that... Minor suit contracts might be better at imps, major suit contracts might go lost a lot,... The advantage of opening other stuff unbalanced however could balance advantages and disadvantages, but I never played a similar system.

[mikestar]

Luke,

In this style you will never give a three card raise on a NT hand--the raise of resonder's major will have four trumps, or three trumps unbalanced.

Similiarly, you never bid 1S over a 1H response unless unbalanced. On of the bigger upsides of the method is that your unbalanced hands are better defined.

In your example hand the auction starts 1D-1H-1N (13-15) and it's iffy wheter South should accept an invitaiton. Yes he has 14 HCP and 5 clubs, but the suit isn't great and the D-Jx is poor. In any case North will sign off in hearts using the appropriate bid for whatever transfer checkback structure you have agreed on--the hand isn't strong enough to hope for game opposite 13-15.

If South were stong enough for 2N, North uses his systemic bid to check for heart support and bids the appropriate game.


One downside is that if you don't play 10-12 in all positions, you will need to adjust all of the ranges. Perhaps in these positions let 1N=13-15 and only bid 1D on the stong balanced hands, or use 1D for the 10-12 step if you want to bid these but find 1N too risky.

[luke warm]

i agree with all of that, if playing this way.. and i did ask you about the vulnerability thing (and 4th seat) in an earlier post.. that would be the only thing needing adjustment.. all in all, this seems playable

btw, i presently use reverse flannery over minor suits.. it seems to me at first glance that this convention would be enhanced by this method, if anything

[luke warm]

another one

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     -     -     Pass
 1♣    Pass  1NT   Pass
 2♦    Pass  2♠    Pass
 2NT   Pass  Pass  Pass
 


result 2NT east =

ok mike, here's one that raises a question.. in the methods we're discussing, west opens 1C (i'm thinking 12-14 nt vulnerable, with 1D=15, 16 or 19, 20 and 1C=17, 18 or 21, 22)

the question is, should the 1C bid be forcing? how bout the 1D bid? maybe they should be, when vulnerable.. in this instance, it would likely go 1C : 1D : 1NT : p

[mikestar]

[luke warm]

mikestar, on Jun 9 2004, 07:34 PM, said:

After 1D-1S-1N (13-15):

2C = modifed Puppet Stayman, asks for 5 hearts.
..2D = no
....2H = asks for 3 spades
..2H = yes
2D = modified Jacoby, may be only 4 hearts, 5+ spades
..2H = 4-5 hearts or 2-3 majors
..2S = 3 spades, 2-3 hearts
2H = modified Jacoby, 5+ spades, < 4 hearts 
2S/2N = minor suit transfer 

on this and hog's transfer stayman, i guess i'm having a lot of trouble understanding why either are superior to regular 2way ckback (especially now that opener's hand range is known)... for example:

1D : 1S : 1N (13-15)
2H shows 5/4 weak (pass or correct to 2S), 2S 5+ weak (to play)

2C puppet to 2D, when 2H shows 5/4 invitational, 2S shows 5+ invitational, etc

2D game force.. opener's bids "up the line" in response.. in this case, 2H shows 4 (even with 3 spades), 2S shows 3 (without 4 hearts), 3C would show 2344 or 2254 or even 2245 (assuming the nt rebid with 2 doubletons) with max, 2NT might show the same type with minimum, as could 3D showing 2353 or 2362

i think the only way to really see the difference is to post actual hands that can compare the methods... they'd need to be random, anyone can construct a hand that fits into the method he likes... so i'll look for hands today that fall into 1) signoff range, 2) invitational range, and 3) game forcing range

[GijsH]

mikestar, on Jun 7 2004, 05:39 PM, said:

Never used it, but I've heard of a method where 1C promises a four-card major and 1D denies one.

for anyone interested, surf to www.gijs-haarlem.tk and click on MIDMAC.

[mikestar]

luke warm, on Jun 13 2004, 03:29 PM, said:

... i guess i'm having a lot of trouble understanding why either are superior to regular 2way ckback (especially now that opener's hand range is known)... for example:

1D : 1S : 1N (13-15)
2H shows 5/4 weak (pass or correct to 2S), 2S 5+ weak (to play)

2C puppet to 2D, when 2H shows 5/4 invitational, 2S shows 5+ invitational, etc

2D game force.. opener's bids "up the line" in response.. in this case, 2H shows 4 (even with 3 spades), 2S shows 3 (without 4 hearts), 3C would show 2344 or 2254 or even 2245 (assuming the nt rebid with 2 doubletons) with max, 2NT might show the same type with minimum, as could 3D showing 2353 or 2362

The main disadvantage of 2 way checkback is that you will wrongside more contracts. Other than that factor, you will get fair accuracy with rather less complexity. Obviously, the wrongsiding factor is more significant in 1C-1M-1N seuences than in 1D-1M-1N sequences.

I would tend to avoid using this structure with 2=2-5-4.

[luke warm]

mikestar, on Jun 15 2004, 12:11 AM, said:

luke warm, on Jun 13 2004, 03:29 PM, said:

... i guess i'm having a lot of trouble understanding why either are superior to regular 2way ckback (especially now that opener's hand range is known)... for example:

1D : 1S : 1N (13-15)
2H shows 5/4 weak (pass or correct to 2S), 2S 5+ weak (to play)

2C puppet to 2D, when 2H shows 5/4 invitational, 2S shows 5+ invitational, etc

2D game force.. opener's bids "up the line" in response.. in this case, 2H shows 4 (even with 3 spades), 2S shows 3 (without 4 hearts), 3C would show 2344 or 2254 or even 2245 (assuming the nt rebid with 2 doubletons) with max, 2NT might show the same type with minimum, as could 3D showing 2353 or 2362

The main disadvantage of 2 way checkback is that you will wrongside more contracts. Other than that factor, you will get fair accuracy with rather less complexity. Obviously, the wrongsiding factor is more significant in 1C-1M-1N seuences than in 1D-1M-1N sequences.

I would tend to avoid using this structure with 2=2-5-4.

why is this necessarily true? not arguing, asking... assume a system somewhat like the one discussed above

1c : 1h - 1c=some nt range, to be shown on rebid, else clubs unbalanced
1nt : 2d - 1nt now shows 16-18 balanced, 2d gf ckback

now then, opener bids 2h with 3 or 2s with 4.. how is this wrongsided?

i see how it's possible in an invitational sequence

1c : 1h
1nt : 2c
2d : 2s - should show 5 hearts and 4 spades, invitational... but this seems the only possible 'wrongside' since responder has already bid hearts

[mikestar]

Luke,

Let's focus on 1C-1M-1N sequences. The 1d sequences are similar but the wrongsiding effect is less significant.

1C-1H-1N

2D rightsides the spades.
2C puppet to 2D wrongsides the spades.

1C-1S-1N

2D rightsides the hearts.
2C wrongsides the hearts.
2H signoff wrongsides the hearts.

This is the additional price you pay for using 2 way checkback. On less than game forcing hands, you wrongside contracts in the other major.

I agree with you that this isn't an excessive price and if 2 way checkback is more understandable and easier to play for your partnership, I would recommend using it. Transfer checkback is technically superior, but the margin is small enough to be easily overridden by partnership factors.

This might also ease the memory load if you are playing 2 way stayman over your mini NT (as is very common).

[luke warm]

yup, easing the ole memory load is important and yeah, that's one BIG consideration.. i agree with those conclusions

[madmonkey]

Two others ...

A top US pair play "Inverse Polish Club", where 1C is either natural and unlimited or 18+balanced, and 1D is natural or 11-14 balanced. Please see http://tinyurl.com/29zhp

Also, Fantoni-Nunes play 11-14 NT and open 1C with natural or any 15+ balanced. The reason I mention this is that they then play 1D and 1H as transfer responses to the 1C opener, and subsequently opener can start using symmetric relays by completing the transfer at the one level. This pretty much maximises the bidding space available for responding to strong balanced hands. just google for "fantoni nunes" and you should be able to find some details.