[iscbrooks]

Considering the dozens of artificial bidding conventions out there, imagine my frustration where I could not find 1 variation which differentiates between 1♣ and 1♦. I've long though it silly that the only difference between the two bids is that you bid the one that's "better". Considering you can open with either with three, that's not very helpful. I'm quite certain there are more efficient things to do with two bids that mean the same. If any of you have know/use any 1♣/1♦ variations, please post them.

[Free]

I don't know for sure what you mean, but I usually play something called "longer minor". It means you bid your longest, and when equal in length you bid your best when weak, and your worst when strong.

[mikestar]

Never used it, but I've heard of a method where 1C promises a four-card major and 1D denies one.

[MickyB]

If you differentiate between 1♣ and 1♦ openings, it isn't a convention, it's a different system. There are many systems out there - the obvious one is Short Club, which puts some or all of the balanced hands from 1♦ into 1♣, and sometimes even the 4-4-4-1 shape. There are strong clubs, where all hands of about 16+points are opened 1♣. And there is Polish Club, where 1♣ is 12-14 bal, 15-17 unbal priamary ♣ or 18+any, and the 2♣ opener is natural, 5+♣, 11-14. Is this the sort of thing you were thinking of?

I wouldn't write off Better Minor. 1♦ is nearly always 4+ cards, and 1♣ normally is. It can help with competitive bidding and hand evaluation to know that partner will have some length in his suit. You expect Short Club to lose out slightly when you open 1♣ and gain when you open 1♦, but 1♣ will come up nearly three times as often as 1♦.

BTW, what is the point of bidding your weaker minor when you are strong, Free?

[Free]

Hmmm, I seem to forgotten it I think when you open 1m from a 3-card, partner might have a big chance of playing in a Major game, so they'll have to lead through your hand. It's more psychological imo When weak, opps might have a chance to compete, so then you need your p to lead the best minor in some cases...

[Flame]

I have posted about this same problem here in the forum more then once, i totally agree with you. i think this problem is the main motivation for most known systems.
Some examples of ways for a better use.
first way is to open 1d with four card and 1c with a minimum of 2 cards.
this mean you open 1c with 4432.
second way is to play a kind of polish club, this can mean many things, since we are talking about clubs and diamonds here, in systems like strefa 1d is atleast 4 card diamond unbalanced, this mean that even 4342 will open 1c and not 1d.
other conventional use are the strong clubs (precision moscito, blue club etc...)
there are many other systems which are less common but most do something with this 1c/1d duplication, i play midmac which 1c = i got 4 card major, 1d= i dont have 4 card major (lately a french system called WEB which have the same 1c/1d as midmac is gaining popularity)

[mishovnbg]

Can also play 1♣/1♦: nat or some range of NT.
Misho

[mikestar]

mishovnbg, on Jun 8 2004, 06:04 AM, said:

Can also play 1♣/1♦: nat or some range of NT.
Misho

This method has some merit in clarifying your balanced hand ranges. One example of how this might be used:

1N = 10-12 balanced
1D, rebid minumum NT = 13-15 balanced
1C, rebid minumum NT = 16-18 balanced
1D, rebid jump NT = 19-20 balanced
1C, rebid jump NT = 21-22 balanced

This leaves 2N free for use in your preemptive system. 23+ balanced start with 2C.

Other schemes are possible.

The down side of this is that either minor might be opened on a doubleton.

[helene_t]

If you play 1♦ as NF natural-or-weak-balanced, it is not so bad if you end up in 1♦ in a 2-0 fit, since the opps will have the majority of the strength, then. 1♣ should always be forcing, since there are plenty of respond schemes available (transfers, 1♦ negative). Disadvantage: partner can't support your minor suit directly, and doesn't know which minor suit to lead.

Alternatively: play 1♣ as promissing a 4-card in either major unless extra values, and 1♦ as denying 4-card major unless extra values. Then, 1♦ will almost always be a real suit, and you always have a rebid if you open 1♣ and partner responds 1♦ (negative).

Or play Borring Club: 1♣ is always ballanced, any strength. This means that the "reverse" rebids after a 1♣ opening are available to show specific strength, and the 1NT and/or 2♣-openings are available for hands with club length. In this system, 1♦ could be natural, as in Polish Club, or nebulous, as in Precission.

[luke warm]

mikestar, on Jun 8 2004, 05:51 PM, said:

mishovnbg, on Jun 8 2004, 06:04 AM, said:

Can also play 1♣/1♦: nat or some range of NT.
Misho

This method has some merit in clarifying your balanced hand ranges. One example of how this might be used:

1N = 10-12 balanced
1D, rebid minumum NT = 13-15 balanced
1C, rebid minumum NT = 16-18 balanced
1D, rebid jump NT = 19-20 balanced
1C, rebid jump NT = 21-22 balanced

This leaves 2N free for use in your preemptive system. 23+ balanced start with 2C.

Other schemes are possible.

The down side of this is that either minor might be opened on a doubleton.

this is interesting... i think i like it... feel free to post more on it can i assume the major structure follows the same path, given the nt rebids?

[mikestar]

luke warm, on Jun 9 2004, 03:20 PM, said:

this is interesting... i think i like it... feel free to post more on it can i assume the major structure follows the same path, given the nt rebids?

This structure has the usual disadvantages of the mini NT -- more NT and major suit contracts will be wrongsided. As against that, your NT sequences are more accurate and you will find major suit fits the field misses.

The first question in desinging a system around this structure is how to open 5M-3-3-2 hands. For discussion I will assume the more radical but more consistent concept that opens these hands with the minor appropriate for the NT range.

So 1 of a major is guaranteed to have six cards or a side suit--this really helps 1N forcing auctions.

1 of a minor may only be a doubleton--but if the rebid is anything other than NT or a major suit raise, 4 cards in the minor are guaranteed and 5 are likely.

After the common sequence 1m-1M opener with a balanced hand will raise the major with 4 (or 5) card support and rebid NT otherwise. A new suit or a rebid of the minor is natural and promises an unbalanced hand.


After a NT rebid we can take advantage of the major suit pattern being partially known.

After 1D-1S-1N (13-15):

2C = modifed Puppet Stayman, asks for 5 hearts.
..2D = no
....2H = asks for 3 spades
..2H = yes
2D = modified Jacoby, may be only 4 hearts, 5+ spades
..2H = 4-5 hearts or 2-3 majors
..2S = 3 spades, 2-3 hearts
2H = modified Jacoby, 5+ spades, < 4 hearts
2S/2N = minor suit transfer

More sequences later.

[iscbrooks]

Quote

I've heard of a method where 1C promises a four-card major and 1D denies one.

I like that idea. It makes it easier to find a 4-4 major fit, one of the faults of 5-card majors.

[luke warm]

mikestar, on Jun 9 2004, 07:34 PM, said:

The first question in desinging a system around this structure is how to open 5M-3-3-2 hands.  For discussion I will assume the more radical but more consistent concept that opens these hands with the minor appropriate for the NT range.

After 1D-1S-1N (13-15):

2C = modifed Puppet Stayman, asks for 5 hearts.
..2D = no
....2H = asks for 3 spades
..2H = yes
2D = modified Jacoby, may be only 4 hearts, 5+ spades
..2H = 4-5 hearts or 2-3 majors
..2S = 3 spades, 2-3 hearts
2H = modified Jacoby, 5+ spades, < 4 hearts 
2S/2N = minor suit transfer 

at the moment i open 5332 hands 1nt if within 10-13, which means if i open 1M then rebid anything other than some number of nt, i have either 14+ or an unbalanced hand... iow, i try to resolve the rebid problems much as i would playing a strong nt, by opening 1nt when i can

i don't see a problem with this, assuming i'd like to keep doing it... i also don't see any inherent problem with changing 1m/any/1nt from 13-15 to 14-16, do you?

i like the 1d/1s/1n/2c thing, but do you think this is superior to 'normal' 2 way checkback, where 2c is invitational and 2d is gf?

[the hog]

Play transfer checkback. This is a far superior method to normal and to 2 way checkback, even if I do say so myself.

A nice 1C/1D structure is what a number of Oz experts play.
1C 1?
1N = 17-19 bal

1D 1?
1N = 12-14 bal, (or 11-13)

This leaves your 1N opening at 15-17 (14-16)

[mikestar]

The_Hog, on Jun 10 2004, 12:20 AM, said:

Play transfer checkback. This is a far superior method to normal and to 2 way checkback, even if I do say so myself.

I'm working some of this out as I go along. I'd love to hear details about transfer checkback.

[the hog]

We play transfer checkback.
After 1C 1? 1N -

2C is a puppet to 2D, which may be made with
a weak hand wishing to sign off in D
an invitational hand with a 5 card Major
an invitational hand with a 4 card Major and a 5+m
a GF balanced hand

Other bids apart from 2C are transfers.


These occur in the following sequences:

1C 1M
1N

1C 1H
1S

1D 1M
1NT

1D 1H
1S


Note that when opener rebids 1N his hand is limited to 12-15 points. Responder is in charge of the auction. Opener MUST rebid 2D after 2C.

When opener rebids 1S, (e.g. 1C 1H 1S), he will usually have 12-15 points, however he MAY have more e.g. 16-17 with 5+C and 4S, or a balanced 17-23 possibly including a 5 card S suit. In these cases he cannot rebid 2D after the 2C puppet as there is too great a danger that responder will pass. He must make some other bid – see below.


Sequences

1C 1S
1NT 2C
2D P Weak with 4S and long D
2H Invit with 5S/4H
2S Invit with 5S
2N Slam ambitions, flat 4333 or 4432 with any other 4 card suit
3C GF natural fragment 5143 shape exactly

1C 1S
1NT 2C
2D 2N
3C Relay asking for other 4 card suit
Now 3D = D,3H = H,3S = C
Now
Raises of the minor to the 4 level are minorwood
3N is a sign off, 4N is quantitative
4C is RKCB in H NB Opener CANNOT HAVE 4S


1C 1S
1NT 2D Transfer to H. Weak or GF
2H Transfer to S, weak or I suited GF
2S Invit to 3N OR sign off in C, (as over 1N opening). Or GF with
5M & 5C – see below
2N GF transfer to C
3C/D/H Natural invitational, 5/5


1C 1S
1NT 2D Transfer to H. Weak or GF
2H Opener accepts t/f, therefore must have 4H
Now 3H = GF, inviting cues, others are natural fragments
2S Opener has <4 H, but at least 2S
Now 2N = GF NT oriented hand
3C/D are GF natural fragments
3H = 5/5 GF
3S = 6 very good S GF


1C 1S
1NT 2S Inv in NT, or weak with C, or GF with 5M & 5C
2N Min
3C Max

1C 1S
1NT 2S
2N 3C Weak with C
3D/H GF with 5M and singleton in this suit
3S 6M and 5C





General Rules In All Sequences:

• 2S is equivalent to 2S over 1NT opening – invitational to 3N or sign off in C
• To transfer and then bid again is a game force, with the exception of invitational hands which go via 2C
• 2D/H/NT are transfers and could be weak OR GF. GF shows the fragment on the next round
• level new suit is natural invitational 5/5
• 2C is either a puppet to 2D, (weak or GF, both natural), or any unbalanced invitational hand

[mikestar]

Thanks, Ron.

[1eyedjack]

The_Hog, on Jun 9 2004, 08:06 PM, said:

We play transfer checkback.
After 1C 1? 1N -

2C is a puppet to 2D, which may be made with
a weak hand wishing to sign off in D
an invitational hand with a 5 card Major
an invitational hand with a 4 card Major and a 5+m
a GF balanced hand

Pard and I made up something similar:

2C = a puppet to 2D, to sign out in D or to sign out in S (follow up with 2H puppet to 2S then pass) or GF with at least 5 in responder's first bid suit (but not 5-5).
2D = any invitational hand, or any GF hand with no interest in anything other than opener's major suit length in order to determine the correct game, or a balanced slam try.
2H = weak and natural
2S+ = GF puppets where responder has 5-5 or better, or fewer than 5 in first bid suit (except that 2N puppet to 3C may be weak and to play in 3C).

Essentially, if responder wishes to "captain" the auction he goes through 2D. If responder wishes to describe his hand (typically preferable if shapely GF) then he goes through the puppets.

[bhtf]

hello all

1C-1M-1NT-2C puppet-2D-Pass is an elegant way to play comfortably
2D with 5-4 D-M, but ..... but my oponents never let me in this contract !
then i take another ways. a little 1C-1S-1NT exposure.

2C relay limit or more
for : 2S = H4 maxi (FG then), 2H = H4 mini, 2D others. then responder
2H : 55 major limit
2S : S5 limit
Pass on 2H : S5 & H4 limit (55 limit : 3D tech, see [*], or 4H !)
others : forcings game or more

2D relay weak or strong
for : 2H by 4, 2S others. Responder :
Pass on 2H : S5 & H4, weak
Pass on 2S, 2S on 2H : S5 weak
2NT transf : S5+ & C4+ very strong, 55+ or 64+
3C transf : S5+ & D4+, same
3D transf : S5+ & H5+, game (id slam : 2C then 3D)
3H transf : S6+, slam (3S discourage, others controls)
3S (H), 4m : void with S6+ slam
3NT : S5 game
4H on 2H : 54 major, game.

2H : 55+ major weak

2S limit, for : 2NT min, others maxs. Then responder :
Pass or 3m 5+ on 2NT : stops
others naturals, 4C gerber if you like (slam on weight)

2NT puppet for 3C, minors six+ weak or slamish. Then :
Pass, 3D : minor 6+, weak
3H©, 3S(D) : minor 6+, slam
4C, 4D : idem, RKCB with mini (first step)/ maxi (others steps)

3C, 3D : good six cards minor, limit for 3NT

3H (!) : AKQxxx no side entry, C or D, only four S.

3S : AKQ in S, no side entry.

[*] 1C-1S-1NT-2C, forcings walks of responder :
2NT FG relay [**]
3C FG with void/single away from C
3D = H 4+ fit limit or slam, 55+ majors slam
3H = S 5 slam
3S FG with void/single in C, no S5 garanty

[**] 2NT relay for :
3T = S/2 , 3D = H/2, 3H = 4333, 3S = D/2, 3N = C/2
(same after 1N-2C-2?-2N, 1m-1M-1N-2C-2?-2N, etc.)
1C-1S-1N-2C- 2D-2N- 3C 2335
3D 3235
3H 3334
3S 3325
3N 2245 (if imposs bid : 5422)
2M-2N- 3C 2434
3D 2425 (imposs bid)
3H 3433
3S 3424

and some others if you want :

1C-1H-1N-2C- 2M-2N- 3C 4225
3D-3H- 3S 4234
3N 4243 [note]
3H 4333
3S 4324
3N 4342 [note]

[note] 1D-1H-1S is 54+ or 4144, 1D-1H-1N deny S4. then 4243 & 4342 open 1C.

1D-1S-1N-2C- 2D-2N- 3C-3D- 3H 2344
3S 2353
3D-3H- 3S 3244
3N 3253
3H 3343
3S 2254
3N 3352
2M-2N- 3C 2443
3D 2452
3N 3442

1H-1S-1N-2C- 2D-2N- 3C 2533
3D 2542
3H 2524
3S 3523
3N 3532

1N-2C- 2D-2N- 3C-3D- 3H 2335
3S 2353
3N 2344
3D-3H- 3S 3235
3N 3253
4C 3244
3H-3S- 3N 3334
4C 3343
3S 3325
3N 3352
2H-2N- 3C-3D- 3H 2434
3S 2443
3D-3H- 3S 2425
3N 2452
3H 3433
3S 3424
3N 3442
2S-2N- 3C-3D- 3H 4234
3S 4243
3D-3H- 3S 4225
3N 4252
3H 4333
3S 4324
3N 4342

[luke warm]

would it be possible for you to post 2 or 3 hands that follow the bidding you suggest? i'd like to look at them and compare the bidding to what i now normally do... thx