[TimG]

Neither side vulnerable.

♠ 6
♥ AT743
♦ Q6
♣ K7642

1♦-(3♠)-?

Is this hand good enough (and otherwise right) for a negative double?

I have intentionally left out the form of scoring, if it makes a difference, please answer for IMPs and MP.

Please also mention if it would make a difference if 1♦ is limited to 10-15 (Precision-like) or 11-17 (Polish-like).

[pooltuna]

TimG, on Dec 23 2009, 12:48 PM, said:

Neither side vulnerable.

♠ 6
♥ AT743
♦ Q6
♣ K7642

1♦-(3♠)-?

Is this hand good enough (and otherwise right) for a negative double?

I have intentionally left out the form of scoring, if it makes a difference, please answer for IMPs and MP.

Please also mention if it would make a difference if 1♦ is limited to 10-15 (Precision-like) or 11-17 (Polish-like).

yes, though I think you have to push this hand much like you would with a Limit Raise hand having to bid game instead of the normal LR. For example 1♥ (2♠) where 3♥ is now a constructive raise.

[jdonn]

Double. All vuls, all forms of scoring. There is much to be said for the principle that he who is short in the opponent's suit stretches to act.

[aguahombre]

jdonn, on Dec 23 2009, 11:37 AM, said:

Double. All vuls, all forms of scoring. There is much to be said for the principle that he who is short in the opponent's suit stretches to act.

Yep, and I don't like it unless it works --but gotta.

Anyone want to give up on a natural 3NT here, and use double for a more convertable hand and 3NT for this one?

[kenrexford]

What else?

[gnasher]

Yes, double is clearcut.

Quote

Anyone want to give up on a natural 3NT here

No thanks.

[Fluffy]

I'd rather bid 4♥ than 3NT.

double is not perfect but there is no option.

[TimG]

I'm assuming that the negative doublers (everybody!) expect the double to lead to 4♥ on a 5-3 fit with some frequency. What considerations go into opener's choice of whether or not to bid 4♥ when he holds exactly three hearts?

I'm guessing that with a spade stopper along with the three hearts, opener would tend to bid 3N. Certainly with a non-Ace stopper such as Kx, Kxx, QJx. What about Ax or Axx?

Does the quality of the three-card heart suit matter? Without a spade stopper, what is the typical minimum three-card holding with which opener would bid 4♥?

[cherdanno]

I won't pass 3N after double, I would bid 4♥. Double does not promise 4 hearts so I think partner will bid 4♥ with 3 hearts very rarely.

[gnasher]

I don't expect partner to bid 4♥ with three, and I'll pass 3NT if that's what he bids. That might be right opposite three hearts, or even opposite four.

We might belong in 3NT, 4♥, 5♣ or 5♦, or it might be right to defend 3♠x. Double at least gives us a chance of getting to the right contract on these hands.

If we were to bid 4♥ over 3♠, we'd increase the chance of getting to 4♥ when it's right, but eliminate the possibility of getting to any other contract. That seems a bad exchange.

Double followed by 4♥ is a possibility. That suggests flexibility, but I don't think the hearts are good enough.

[TimG]

gnasher, on Dec 24 2009, 04:26 AM, said:

We might belong in 3NT, 4♥, 5♣ or 5♦, or it might be right to defend 3♠x.  Double at least gives us a chance of getting to the right contract on these hands.

We might also belong in 4♦ or 4♣. Are you saying that you will be driving to game if opener bids 4m over your double?

Won't opener very often have a balanced 12-14? I don't think we should be too optimistic about making 3N or 4♥ (unless we have a 9-card fit), nor can we be particularly confident about beating 3♠, when opener has sort of what he's expected to have. Maybe you're saying that -50 or -100 is the result we're aiming for against a making 3♠, or at least that this is a possible way doubling can win even when we go minus?

[gnasher]

TimG, on Dec 24 2009, 02:50 PM, said:

We might also belong in 4♦ or 4♣. Are you saying that you will be driving to game if opener bids 4m over your double?

I hadn't really thought about it, but I'd probably raise 4♣ to 5♣. I'd pass 4♦.

[nige1]

jdonn, on Dec 23 2009, 01:37 PM, said:

Double. All vuls, all forms of scoring. There is much to be said for the principle that he who is short in the opponent's suit stretches to act.

Agree with JDonn

[dake50]

What of

S-xx
H-A98xx
D-Qx
C-K98x

still in negX ? Keep going lower hcp/shape until pass.

What higher until 4H? 4C?

I have no <13 hcp hands in 1D, so bottom strength combined is known or likely. Thus I can judge are we being preempted out of a game? Or did 3S get to their partial hoping we overbid/misbid?

[shevek]

TimG, on Dec 24 2009, 08:50 AM, said:

gnasher, on Dec 24 2009, 04:26 AM, said:

We might belong in 3NT, 4♥, 5♣ or 5♦, or it might be right to defend 3♠x.  Double at least gives us a chance of getting to the right contract on these hands.

We might also belong in 4♦ or 4♣. Are you saying that you will be driving to game if opener bids 4m over your double?

Won't opener very often have a balanced 12-14?

No, would have opened 1NT. Isn't that part of the reason we agreed to play weak notrump? That is, to give responder more confidence in these auctions, knowing that 1x = a good suit or a good hand.

[lamford]

gnasher, on Dec 24 2009, 04:26 AM, said:

Double followed by 4♥ is a possibility.  That suggests flexibility, but I don't think the hearts are good enough.

This is the only action I can think of; a sort of three-places-to-play 4♥. Come to think of it Double and pull 3NT to 4♣ must be three-places-to-play as well.

Perhaps that is what you have here, and pulling to 4♥ would be more like

x AKTxx xx QJxxx.

Interesting problem.

[nige1]

dake50, on Dec 27 2009, 03:54 AM, said:

What of S-xx H-A98xx D-Qx C-K98x still in negX ?  Keep going lower hcp/shape until pass.  What higher until 4H? 4C?  I have no <13 hcp hands in 1D, so bottom strength combined is known or likely. Thus I can judge are we being preempted out of a game? Or did 3S get to their partial hoping we overbid/misbid?

Interesting... You may keep the same HCP but vary the shape. For example ....

• ♠ - ♥ Axxxxx ♦ Q ♣ Kxxxxx
  
• ♠ - ♥ Axxxxx ♦ Qx ♣ Kxxxx
  
• ♠ - ♥ Axxxx ♦ Qx ♣ Kxxxxx
  
• ♠ x ♥ Axxxx ♦ Qx ♣ Kxxxx
  
• ♠ xx ♥ Axxx ♦ Qx ♣ Kxxxx
  
• ♠ xxx ♥ Axxx ♦ Qx ♣ Kxxx
  
• ♠ xxx ♥ Axxx ♦ Qxx ♣ Kxx
  
• ♠ xxx ♥ Axx ♦ Qxx ♣ Kxxx

Or you may keep the same shape and vary the HCP

• ♠ x ♥ Axxxx ♦ Qx ♣ KQxxx
  
• ♠ x ♥ Axxxx ♦ Qx ♣ KQxxx
  
• ♠ x ♥ Axxxx ♦ Qx ♣ KJxxx
  
• ♠ x ♥ Axxxx ♦ Qx ♣ Kxxxx
  
• ♠ x ♥ Kxxxx ♦ Qx ♣ Kxxxx
  
• ♠ x ♥ Kxxxx ♦ Qx ♣ Qxxxx
  
• ♠ x ♥ Qxxxx ♦ Qx ♣ Qxxxx

IMO

• a b = 4♥, c = 4♣, d e f g = _X, h = _P.
  
• i ii iii iv v =_X, vi vii = _P

It might also be interesting to learn the effect of varying intermediates, honour quality, and location.
I agree with Paul that if partner rebids 3N, you should probably bid 4♣

[bluecalm]

Double for sure. My only problem is what to do after 3nt from partner; 4C and 4H are both possible imo.
After generating some layouts I believe 4C after 3nt is winning action.
We can still have 6 hearts for double and 4H right ?