[mohitz]

jdonn, on May 11 2010, 12:45 AM, said:

South should obviously (to me) open 1♠ in 3rd seat, obviously overcall 2♠ the next round, and north should obviously double 2♥ when it comes around to him. I do not think north should double 1♥. I also think the double of 2♥, vul with Qx of hearts, is the least obvious of the 3 actions I named. I blame south more.

Why is doubling in the balancing seat less obvious then doubling in direct? Now, we know we probably make something. X in direct seat risks giving away distribution/strength when its their hand but perhaps that is good cause he would finesse in hearts the other way. Just curious.

[nigel_k]

South should have opened and overcalled. North should have doubled at both opportunities.

I'm giving North 65% because I think South's actions were closer, and the failure to double 1H by North as a passed hand is the only action I really consider a blatant error rather than just a judgment call.

[aguahombre]

mohitz, on May 10 2010, 01:35 PM, said:

jdonn, on May 11 2010, 12:45 AM, said:

South should obviously (to me) open 1♠ in 3rd seat, obviously overcall 2♠ the next round, and north should obviously double 2♥ when it comes around to him. I do not think north should double 1♥. I also think the double of 2♥, vul with Qx of hearts, is the least obvious of the 3 actions I named. I blame south more.

Why is doubling in the balancing seat less obvious then doubling in direct? Now, we know we probably make something. X in direct seat risks giving away distribution/strength when its their hand but perhaps that is good cause he would finesse in hearts the other way. Just curious.

check what JD said, again. He named 3 actions of which he would have approved and stated which of those was least obvious. doubling 1H was not one of the three actions he would have taken.

[jdonn]

mohitz, on May 10 2010, 02:35 PM, said:

jdonn, on May 11 2010, 12:45 AM, said:

South should obviously (to me) open 1♠ in 3rd seat, obviously overcall 2♠ the next round, and north should obviously double 2♥ when it comes around to him. I do not think north should double 1♥. I also think the double of 2♥, vul with Qx of hearts, is the least obvious of the 3 actions I named. I blame south more.

Why is doubling in the balancing seat less obvious then doubling in direct? Now, we know we probably make something. X in direct seat risks giving away distribution/strength when its their hand but perhaps that is good cause he would finesse in hearts the other way. Just curious.

If you double in balancing seat the opponents have a fit, opener is a minimum, and responder is a minimum. None of those 3 considerations are known to hold when you are acting in direct seat.

[hijumper]

No one to be blame for EW. 4H is not easy. There are four losing tricks: 2C, 1S and 1D. It is reasonable for East to downgrade his hand with 10 bad points and ugly shape to bid 2H. West had no interest to explore further after the passive 2H raise. Nobody would bid further except their side are in desperate situation. I want to address my point: Don't judge the bidding course by results, but by rationale of your system.

[Siegmund]

I see 200% blame to South, for failing to open and to overcall. That still leaves a little bit left over, since North has a decidedly imperfect takeout double, but as a passed hand it's certainly an acceptable call and could have avoided the disaster. (But I voted South-only in the poll, since IMO passing in 3rd seat was by far the largest mistake.)

[quiddity]

jdonn, on May 10 2010, 02:15 PM, said:

South should ... obviously overcall 2♠ the next round...

I agree with the rest of the post, but I don't think I could bring myself to make a vul. 2S overcall on that hand/suit. Maybe I'm too conservative there.

[Mbodell]

I agree with many that everyone but East might be my choice. I think how you blame N/S depends on how you bid in 3rd. If the South hand is a clear 1♠ in 3rd (which to me it is) it makes an immediate double from the North hand not clear (and I don't think I'd do it) and even the balancing decision close (I would do it).

If you think South is a very close pass/1♠ then you might double more aggressively from North as South can be this good.

[Dirk Kuijt]

IIRC, the standard to open in fourth position is 15 Pearson points (HCP + spades). West isn't close.

[mike777]

West

getts all the blame....credit.....etc...

[mohitz]

aguahombre, on May 11 2010, 01:22 AM, said:

check what JD said, again. He named 3 actions of which he would have approved and stated which of those was least obvious. doubling 1H was not one of the three actions he would have taken.

Sorry misread

[Free]

2 questions: does it matter...
- that West hesitated before he passed 2♥?
- if NS agreed not to open light in any seat (also not playing Drury)?

[bill1157]

mohitz, on May 10 2010, 02:16 PM, said:

bill1157, on May 11 2010, 12:40 AM, said:

The 4th seat opener is fine, I would possibly open 2♥ but 1♥ probably works better. If you have any kind of a hand in 4th seat it is almost always right to open. East should bid Drury if he(she) has that available, 2♥ practically invites N/S into the auction.

I am trying to find if i agree with ANY part of your post. Sorry can't find any!

2H in the passout seat shows an intermediate hand for most.

The 4th seat opener is not fine. It is certainly not right to open any hand in the 4th seat. Do you have any reasoning or data to back this? (I have at least this hand to cite)

Why wouldn't Drury invite them into the auction?

I don't always express myself very well, but yes opening in 4th seat with a reasonable hand i.e. like this one is winning action: forget the spade+points=15 rule. Also this is acceptable for a 2♥ opening its a matter of style.

Bill

[gwnn]

I don't always agree with bill1157 but now I completely disagree with him. While I agree that the cansino rule is useless, I think I'd open it with the majors reversed but pass it like this. The rule cited by dburn that you should *always* open in 4th is interesting and I have started using it with some success, but this is surely too much. Anyway this is a pretty stale debate, it will not get us anywhere.

[hanp]

I would definitely open 1S with the south hand. West made a poor decision to open 1H and against competent opponents it should have worked out very poorly. There is a reason why opening 10-counts in fourth seat is a bad idea when you have a singleton spade.

North had two chances to double, I think I would have taken both.

[kfay]

hanp, on May 12 2010, 05:22 AM, said:

I would definitely open 1S with the south hand. West made a poor decision to open 1H and against competent opponents it should have worked out very poorly. There is a reason why opening 10-counts in fourth seat is a bad idea when you have a singleton spade.

North had two chances to double, I think I would have taken both.

Man, Han! You double too much!!!

[jdeegan]

Let's look at the bids in order:
a. S might open 1♠ third seat, BUT being vul takes most of the luster from this bid. A good 1♠ open non-vul becomes sub-marginal vul - too easy to go for a quit -200. No charge here, but also no charge for 1♠ either.
b. Over 1♥ N might make a light passed hand double, BUT he is vul and holds ♥Q doubleton - a very bad holding for offense - 10 WORKING HCP and 4-2-4-3 distr. would make a dbl OK, but not mandatory. Imo. dbl is wrong and pass is clearcut.
c. Over 2♥ S has to pass. "Prebalancing" is imo. not totally crazy, but you are vul and LHO is unlimited. It's a pretty desperate act.
d. N is in the balancing chair over 2♥. It is almost never right to pass this auction esp. at MP's. Imo, the only two options are dbl and 2♠. My preference by a considerable margin would be 2♠, but one cannot argue that dbl would be wrong.

Charges: N 100% for not balancing on an auction that begs for it. I have heard of one world class player who claims 100% balancing action is correct regardless of your hand. N had a hand within shouting distance of bidding on the previous round of bidding.

All of the choices except d. depend to an extent on the strength of the opposition and the state of our game. I would generally advise not to be eager to bid against strong players unless you enjoy being endplayed or doubled for a telephone number.

Also, W choice to open the bidding in 4th chair was way against percentage esp. since he lacked spades. Were I S, I would be mildly insulted. My result, playing vs myself would be Passed Out, a below average result - oh well!

[655321]

Personally I would have bid both times as South, and both times as North.

jdeegan, on May 13 2010, 12:42 AM, said:

I would generally advise not to be eager to bid against strong players unless you enjoy being endplayed or doubled for a telephone number.

Disagree. The easiest and surest way to lose against good players is to be intimidated into passing when you should be bidding. It is a recipe for being robbed blind.

[billw55]

This is an good thread, it is interesting to see how various experts rate the several mistakes differently. I rank them this way, from most to least severe/obvious:

1. west opening
2. north not doubling 2♥ in balancing seat
3. south not opening 1♠
4. north not doubling 1♥ directly
5. south not bidding 2♠ over 2♥. This one I really don't consider an error at all, just a decision.

[gszeszycki]

p p p 1h (unlimited)
p (very reasonable) 2h p (why step into unknown waters with such dreck and unlimited opp to your left thats why we have partners to protect our backs (pre balance bah)
p
NOW we know that Partner has some power and not many hearts (opps have a heart fit so we probably have a fit also) so a nice simple take out X here is safe simple and effective (support for ALL unbid suits)

I assign 100% to N for being too cowardly and not acting to protect partner who was in poor position to act.