[kgr]

straube, on May 11 2010, 03:43 AM, said:

awm, on May 10 2010, 07:59 PM, said:

Well, suppose we took a BBF poll of:

♠xx ♥KJ9xxx ♦x ♣AQxx

I expect that most would open 1♥ on this hand rather than 2♥ or pass. I also expect that most would rebid 2♣ on this hand after 1♥-P-1♠-P. Feel free to disagree on either of these points; we can actually take the poll if you want.

Assuming I'm right, what does this hand bid after 1♥-1♠-2♣-2NT? It really seems like passing could be a disaster; say partner has KJxx Qx Qxxx Kxx for example. You could easily lose the first 4-5 diamond tricks and a heart and 1-2 spades for down two, while 3♥ is really good and 4♥ has a bit of play. Even if the opponents lead a black suit it doesn't necessarily save 2NT.

I agree that in some sense 3♥ forcing is standard (it's certainly very old-fashioned standard) but I think the non-forcing treatment is a logical consequence of some very common modern stylistic choices (opening very light on 6-4 hands, rebidding four-card side suits rather than showing the sixth card in the suit opened). Just because not all modern players who adhere to these common modern stylistic treatments have yet realized the logical consequences don't mean they aren't logical consequences...

Seems like this new style of bidding gets us up too high. If I'm playing a standard system, I still like 1H and a 2H rebid because it limits my hand.

Agree. If I open 1♥ then I rebid 2♥.

straube, on May 11 2010, 03:43 AM, said:

Over 1H-1S, 2C with KJxx Qx Qxxx Kxx I'll probably rebid 2H because this hand has soft values (the knr is 8.95) and I don't want to bid 2N unless I have a hand worth a bad 11.

I would rebid 2NT with that hand. 2♥ shows a weaker hand and if we play NT then it is best played from my hand

straube, on May 11 2010, 03:43 AM, said:

Without agreement, I'd take 1H-1S, 2C-2N-3D as natural showing a 1-5-3-4 pattern with somewhere between 14 and 18 hcps.  Forcing to 3N or 4m I would think.

Still 4th suit GF for me, but we play 2♣ forcing.

[mikeh]

awm, on May 10 2010, 07:33 PM, said:

The problem is that I'm not convinced 1♥-1♠-2♣-2N-3♥ should be forcing.

Certainly there is an old-fashioned style where minimum 6♥-4♣ hands are supposed to rebid 2♥ at second turn and then 3♣ at third turn, in which case the above sequence is stronger. But I don't think many people play this style now -- most seem to prefer to almost always rebid 2♣ in order to show nine cards of shape instead of six. Assuming most minimum 6♥-4♣ hands would rebid 2♣, it seems necessary to have a way to get out in 3♥ (which could easily be the best contract) -- perhaps even more essential since people open pretty light these days with 6-4 shape.

Assuming 1♥-1♠-2♣-2N-3♥ is NF, we need to bid 3♦ with patterns like 1624 and even 2614 in order to find the best game.

with the super weak 6=4, I'd rebid 2♥. It may be old fashioned, but not everything that is old fashioned is obsolete. Sometimes the reason an old treatment is still current is because it is effective.

It used to be that the sequence H - C - H showed significant extras, and I don't go that far...but I like to be able to show a hand that would accept a 2N invite over 2C (Unless I rebid 3C, which is to play).

Major then clubs is the toughest sequence: all other sequences with responder rebidding 2N allow for opener to use transfers at the 3-level, which greatly increases flexibility.

[flytoox]

awm, on May 11 2010, 12:59 AM, said:

Well, suppose we took a BBF poll of:

♠xx ♥KJ9xxx ♦x ♣AQxx

I expect that most would open 1♥ on this hand rather than 2♥ or pass. I also expect that most would rebid 2♣ on this hand after 1♥-P-1♠-P. Feel free to disagree on either of these points; we can actually take the poll if you want.

Assuming I'm right, what does this hand bid after 1♥-1♠-2♣-2NT? It really seems like passing could be a disaster; say partner has KJxx Qx Qxxx Kxx for example. You could easily lose the first 4-5 diamond tricks and a heart and 1-2 spades for down two, while 3♥ is really good and 4♥ has a bit of play. Even if the opponents lead a black suit it doesn't necessarily save 2NT.

I agree that in some sense 3♥ forcing is standard (it's certainly very old-fashioned standard) but I think the non-forcing treatment is a logical consequence of some very common modern stylistic choices (opening very light on 6-4 hands, rebidding four-card side suits rather than showing the sixth card in the suit opened). Just because not all modern players who adhere to these common modern stylistic treatments have yet realized the logical consequences don't mean they aren't logical consequences...

With the hand you gave, isnt 2H the better rebid, rather than 2C? Rebidding 2C then bidding 3H shows better than min, I think.

[peachy]

What if responder has AQxx-x-Kxxxx-Jxx or 4-1-6-2, an invitational hand with five or six diamonds? That hand is a very common one in the posted auction.

I'm still listening what others say, but 1H-1S-2C-2NT-3H is definitely forcing because with a minimum opening and six hearts, opener would have rebid 2H instead of 2C, and with 5-5 he would bid 3C over 2NT. Right?

Should 3D by opener be forcing; and, what hand would it show - don't know.

[hijumper]

NF. First of all, both sides showed a limited hand by 2c and 2NT. 2NT iwas invitational and showed a hand with <6 S and <2H and stopper on d. 3D was not forcing but probably invitational because of limited 2C. 3D should show a 0544 hand and ask partner to decide where to go depending on what he had.