[kfay]

1♦-(2♥)-2♠-(4♥)
Dbl-(P)-4♠-(P)
4NT

[karlson]

I'm sure it won't be popular, but I would answer keycard here. Everything else seems too weird.

[mgoetze]

Keycard for me too. If partner has the minors he could have bid 5♣ or 5NT...

[aguahombre]

Do we get to know the level of the person who bid 4NT?

He already warned us about wanting to defend, rather than play in spades. So, we need to know if he is adv+ and is torturing us to figure out the pattern --or if he is just throwing a tantrum with a spade void.

[pooltuna]

kfay, on May 19 2010, 01:48 PM, said:

1♦-(2♥)-2♠-(4♥)
Dbl-(P)-4♠-(P)
4NT

At the Bedlam Bridge Center, 4NT is to play since partner can't be trusted to know when to play 4♠ besides the 4NT bidder has a ♠ void

[mikeh]

natural doesn't look right....we can't be overruling partner on this hand...we have already shown a strong hand with short spades and probably some stuff in hearts (strong because we were not in a fp situation imo)

So takeout or keycard? neither seems clear.

Takeout caters to his having say 6=5 or 7=5 blacks and may also win on strongish 6=4/7=4 hands when we are say 0=3=6=4. We can assume that unless he has 8+ spades, he will have either diamond tolerance, making our 6=3 playable, or 4+ clubs, making our 4=4 playable.

Keycard caters to our having a hand such as J Axx AKxxx AKxx.

My intuition is down for the day so I have no sense which is the most likely scenario. Tipping the scale in favour of takeout is the notion that we can't show that hand any other way (pulling to 5♣ would show 5) while, with the keycard hand, we can at least make some other unambiguous move in spades..... 5♥ is one seemingly obvious slam try and 5♠ is another...we can already infer short hearts from the auction and our spade shortness makes using 5♥ as any form of ask about a heart control seem silly.

So I vote takeout....but not with anyone less than expert, since I would expect keycard to be the default meaning for most (and maybe that's why it should be for all, anyway...)

[gwnn]

Keycard please, takeout seems interesting but feels out of place where partner is the one with the spades (as opposed to opps bidding a lot of spades and us bidding 4NT out of necessity). With minor oriented hands we can
pass
bid 5c
bid 5d
bid something else last round

that seems enough to me. Of course sometimes it will not be enough but not that often.

[Phil]

I think its logically natural but I wouldn't ever spring this on a partner unless we discussed it in advance or at least had some firm rules.

Key card makes no sense to me. Neither does takeout. Why can't I prefer NT to spades - this might even be a misfit.

[Jlall]

Phil, on May 19 2010, 07:08 PM, said:

I think its logically natural

What logic would that be

[bluecalm]

Imo RKCB in ♠. If partner is 6-5 or 7-4 in minors he could have bid 4NT on previous round.

[jdonn]

Keycard. Who cares what I might prefer, partner seems to prefer something else more.

[Phil]

Jlall, on May 19 2010, 07:27 PM, said:

Phil, on May 19 2010, 07:08 PM, said:

I think its logically natural

What logic would that be

So we express an opinion about 4♥ by doubling. Partner pulls to 4♠, and suddenly we want to make a slam try with 4N (RKC)?

I can't begin to understand why it would be takeout, so I'm not going to try.

Whats your choice?

[karlson]

Seems that a lot of people think double was penalty. I was assuming it wasn't -- my preferred treatment would be takeout/flexible, so 4s was not at all unexpected and doesn't have to be on 7 spades.

[kfay]

karlson, on May 20 2010, 02:30 AM, said:

Seems that a lot of people think double was penalty. I was assuming it wasn't -- my preferred treatment would be takeout/flexible, so 4s was not at all unexpected and doesn't have to be on 7 spades.

Yes, I assumed the same.

[gwnn]

whoever assumed double was penalties?

[bluecalm]

Quote

So we express an opinion about 4♥ by doubling. Partner pulls to 4♠, and suddenly we want to make a slam try with 4N (RKC)?

I can't begin to understand why it would be takeout, so I'm not going to try.

??
C'mon it's not 1960. How is double for penalties ?
If it was, what would you bid with:

Ax xx AKxxx KQxx or
Ax x KQxxx AQxxx or even:
Kx x AQJxxx AJxx

Even if you are in penalty doubles in a lot of auctions if:
a)we didn't find fit
b)given hand has very wide range (11-22 here)
c)you sit in front of length of their suit

The only reasonable treatment is to play it as t/o.

EDIT : to add 13th card to 3rd example

[mikeh]

there is no way that the double contains real spade support. We are not in a fp situation, so double shows ownership fo the hand (thus extra values) and no liking for spades. It doesn't show a heart stack but it suggests playing for penalties unless partner has some feature not indicated by a minimum 2♠ bid...extra spades (playable opposite a stiff) or big minor shape.

Call it what you want (other than takeout, which in my view it isn't). It suggests they can't make 4♥ and we can't make 4♠ (opposite a minimum range 2♠) nor am I confident of a 5 level minor suit adventure.

I would expect the double to be left in much of the time...not as much as if this were 1960....but a takeout double is taken out unless partner has, based on his own defence, a desire to penalize them...and this ain't that double

[bluecalm]

Ok, fine. So what do you bid with above mentioned hands ?

[Phil]

mikeh, on May 20 2010, 08:48 AM, said:

there is no way that the double contains real spade support. We are not in a fp situation, so double shows ownership fo the hand (thus extra values) and no liking for spades. It doesn't show a heart stack but it suggests playing for penalties unless partner has some feature not indicated by a minimum 2♠ bid...extra spades (playable opposite a stiff) or big minor shape.

Call it what you want (other than takeout, which in my view it isn't). It suggests they can't make 4♥ and we can't make 4♠ (opposite a minimum range 2♠) nor am I confident of a 5 level minor suit adventure.

I would expect the double to be left in much of the time...not as much as if this were 1960....but a takeout double is taken out unless partner has, based on his own defence, a desire to penalize them...and this ain't that double

I've thought about this one overnight and I'm coming around to this POV:

Here's a few hands:

xx Axx KJxx AQxx

Kx Axx KQJxx Axx

Kx AJx KQxx AQxx


I think these are all clear doubles. On 1, I would pass 4♠. On 2 I would bid 4N (so sue me...). On 3? Not so sure - maybe pick a slam; dunno.

By the way, on Bluecalm's examples the only one I agree can double is the 1st (3rd has 12 btw).

[gwnn]

on the second you think 4N will be a better contract than 4S? Why?