[Fluffy]

jdonn, on May 21 2010, 12:23 AM, said:

Best player in NBA? Top 10 in NBA? lol?!?

that's what I am asking, place him somewhere!

[Rodney26]

Alphabetically....

Anthony
Bryant
Durant
Howard
James
Nash
Nowitski
Paul
Wade

(hard to argue he's better than anyone in the top 9, but....)

Boozer
Duncan
Garnett
Gasol
S. Jackson
J. Johnson
Pierce
Rondo
Rose
Stoudemire
D. Williams

It seems to me Pau's very much in the upper half of this next tier as an approximate top 20.

It's easy to say that Kobe makes him, but Kobe couldn't take the Lakers to the finals from 05-07 by himself.

[Winstonm]

Fluffy, on May 20 2010, 07:41 PM, said:

jdonn, on May 21 2010, 12:23 AM, said:

Best player in NBA? Top 10 in NBA? lol?!?

that's what I am asking, place him somewhere!

Gasol is a superstar - it is because he plays with Kobe that he is underappreciated.

At 7 feet, he has a lot of the skills of a small forward as far as outside shooting and ability to drive the ball. But he is also a solid rebounder and can go either left or right handed from the low post.

The only thing that Pau lacks is bulk, but he makes up for that with quickness and intelligence. He is tougher than most give him credit.

I put Gasol in the top 15-20 in the league. I want OKC Thunder to keep Kevin Durant and Westbrook, but I'd trade any two others on the roster for Gasol.

[jjbrr]

jdonn, on May 20 2010, 06:23 PM, said:

Best player in NBA? Top 10 in NBA? lol?!?

Maybe he meant top 10 power forwards in the NBA. Gasol is def a top 10 PF!

[Jlall]

I don't know that much about NBA so take this fwiw but I always considered him about where Rodney said, top 20 but not top 10.

[bb79]

jjbrr, on May 20 2010, 11:59 PM, said:

jdonn, on May 20 2010, 06:23 PM, said:

Best player in NBA? Top 10 in NBA? lol?!?

Maybe he meant top 10 power forwards in the NBA. Gasol is def a top 10 PF!

I admit that I didn't really think too much when I said he's in top 10, I really like how he plays in this playoff series, also demote the other star players when they choke in the playoffs. I think he would be in my top 5 power forward list (with bosh, garnett, nowitzki, stoudemire). I guess I forget how great duncan, randolph, or boozer is?

[andrei]

Pau Gasol is very very good. Top 10 PF? I'd put him in top 3. Better than 6RPG, lazy defense Stoudemire (and I am a Suns fan), better than Bosh, better than an aging Duncan.

Let's not forget that since he joined the Lakers they have played 2 finals in a row, and they are on their way to the 3rd one. Or was it because Derek Fisher returned ?

Marc played very well this year for Memphis, he seems to be a good player also.

Calderon played half a season very good some 2 years ago, now he is not that good.

And you forgot about Rudy Fernandez, too inconsistent at this point.
Isn't Sergio Rodriguez spanish also?

[jjbrr]

andrei, on May 21 2010, 09:18 AM, said:

I'd put him in top 3.

Try putting Gasol on a team that doesn't have Kobe, Wade, or LeBron, and I think you'd be singing a very different tune. Imagine if he played on a team where the opponents could double team him. He'd be good, but top 3 is a bit lol

Oh wait! That actually happened! And then he got traded to the Lakers! He went from like the 8th best PF to top 3 in your mind. Shocking.

[Stephen Tu]

jjbrr I think you are way too critical of Gasol. Top 3 post player is definitely reasonable. Top 15 all players for sure, top ten maybe though that would be debatable. Pau was averaging ~20/9/1.7 for horrible Memphis teams before the Lakers got him.

And I think Kwame Brown effectively disproved your "any PF/C would look good on a team with Kobe" theory.

[andrei]

Try put Kobe in a team without Pau Gasol.

Oh wait! That actually happened! No playoff, first round exit, first round exit. "I want a trade" (Kobe)

(or is Derek Fisher the diference maker?)


edit: I see that you are not a Laker fan, I am not one either, I still hope Suns or Boston to beat them, but Gasol is that good.

[vuroth]

andrei, on May 21 2010, 10:18 AM, said:

better than Bosh

I know next to nothing about basketball, but I'm curious as to why. Bosh has better RPG and PPG than Gasol, on what has to be a vastly inferior team.

What is it that sets them apart?

[jjbrr]

andrei, on May 21 2010, 01:17 PM, said:

Try put Kobe in a team without Pau Gasol.

Oh wait! That actually happened! No playoff, first round exit, first round exit. "I want a trade" (Kobe)

Uhh. Pretty much everyone still called Kobe one of the best players in the league as he was breaking a bunch of scoring records. The rest of the team was garbage and the Western Conference had a lot of really good teams, so I don't see your point.

Kobe had the second most MVP votes (behind Steve Nash) in the year they lost in the first round, and he won the MVP the next year. I don't even like Kobe, and I know you can't compare a guard and a forward easily, but to compare a bad team with Gasol to a bad team with Kobe is LOL. The bad team with Kobe still made the playoffs! In a good conference!

And Stephen Tu, Top 15 for sure!? Come on...

Pau Gasol:
2× All-NBA Third Team selection (2009, 2010)
3× NBA All-Star (2006, 2009, 2010)

2009 and 2010, hm?

What a difference playing on a good team can make.

[Rodney26]

vuroth, on May 21 2010, 02:35 PM, said:

andrei, on May 21 2010, 10:18 AM, said:

better than Bosh

I know next to nothing about basketball, but I'm curious as to why. Bosh has better RPG and PPG than Gasol, on what has to be a vastly inferior team.

What is it that sets them apart?

Decent players on bad teams can put up gaudy statistics. The classic case in the league right now is probably Al Jefferson. He is fairly close to putting up 20 points and 10 rebounds per game the last four years, but his teams have won about 25% of their games.

I think Bosh is more Big Al than Gasol. The team that spends megabucks on Bosh this offseason in lieu of getting Wade, James or Johnson is going to be massively disappointed. Bosh treats loose balls like they're radioactive. He's good for a spectacular block defensively followed by taking a few possessions off. His team has faltered down the stretch in the playoff hunt for several years now. Surely most of Hedo's problems this year were self inflicted, but it is a bit jarring how a savvy player like Hedo has been a complete bust in Toronto. Great players compliment each other toward winning, like the Celtics and Lakers. Guys that are strictly stat machines like Carter and Jamison find the going rough this time of year in terms of winning.

One statistic that seemingly has fallen out of vogue is FG%. Gasol is at an eyepopping 58% this playoff season. His efficiency speaks more to his greatness than the sheer number of points he scores, because the Lakers have 5 guys on their team that could easily score 15+ per night if they were the focal point or second option on the team. The guy is an exceptional player.

[jjbrr]

And also, if you look at his career numbers at LA and at Memphis, they're almost exactly identical. His FG% is up at LA (not surprising; he's not double teamed) and his assists are up (also not surprising). Otherwise his numbers are pretty much exactly the same.

To what do you attribute his recent successes if his numbers are unchanged?

[Stephen Tu]

Quote

And Stephen Tu, Top 15 for sure!? Come on...

Pau Gasol:
2× All-NBA Third Team selection (2009, 2010)
3× NBA All-Star (2006, 2009, 2010)

2009 and 2010, hm?

What a difference playing on a good team can make.

Your point being ??? Being on good teams is usually a pre-requisite for those honors, if you are on bad teams you get downgraded by the voters usually. And he did make all-star 2006, and was rookie of the year when he started, MVP of 2006 world championships, all without Kobe.

How many All-star teams did Kwame make? Lamar Odom? Derek Fisher? How come your theoretical Kobe halo effect doesn't seem to elevate the status of other players on the team, just Pau?

The point is that Pau is a good player, he was good before he played with Kobe, he's not a product purely of playing with Kobe. The Lakers are good in part because he's really good, it's not the reverse. Nobody's claiming Pau is better than Kobe, or that he's not better off playing with Kobe, but you were basically claiming he's a mediocre player that only looks good because he's playing with Kobe which is clearly untrue.

You say he's the 8th best PF in the league? Who are you putting ahead of him, undersized players he dominates like Boozer?

And All-NBA is recognition of the top 15 players in the league so I don't see how you can say he's clearly not.

[jjbrr]

Why do you keep comparing Gasol to Kwame Brown? I just said players like Kwame made the Lakers a garbage team. Gasol is undeniably a great player.

Gasol definitely owns Boozer, but one could make an argument that any of the other PFs listed by bb79 are just as good or better than Gasol. Perhaps not right now, but definitely their careers are as good or better. And he's clearly not one of the best 2, so I think somewhere between 3-7 is pretty close to accurate, as far as PFs go.

How can you say being on a good team is usually a pre-requisite for those honors and then say he's clearly in the top 15 because he has those honors? Given that he was on the 3rd team, there's a pretty good chance if your first claim is true that the second claim is not.

If his numbers are pretty much the same, as I already said, don't you think it's likely that your first claim has more to do with his success than the latter?

[Stephen Tu]

Quote

Why do you keep comparing Gasol to Kwame Brown? I just said players like Kwame made the Lakers a garbage team. Gasol is undeniably a great player.

I bring up Kwame because you made the ridiculous statement "He just plays on a team with Kobe. I would look good at forward if I had Kobe on my team". Kwame played on teams with Kobe, didn't look good, negating your statement.

Quote

Gasol definitely owns Boozer, but one could make an argument that any of the other PFs listed by bb79 are just as good or better than Gasol. Perhaps not right now, but definitely their careers are as good or better.

But are we discussing right now, or career? I think most of us were assuming that we were discussing right now. Duncan/Garnett were clearly much better, career-wise, but they are on the decline physically and I'd probably take Pau over them right now + going forward next few years.

Quote

And he's clearly not one of the best 2, so I think somewhere between 3-7 is pretty close to accurate, as far as PFs go.

3-7 is now pretty close to accurate, but you were LOL'ing at 3 before? Before you called him 8th best. Who are the 7 better?

I'd take Pau before Stoudemire (inconsistent def/rebounding) and Garnett (hobbled compared to where he once was). I think it's a toss-up between Gasol/Duncan right now, but Duncan is clearly on the downward slope.

Nowitzki I don't really think of as a post player, to me he plays more as a tall small forward. Bosh I haven't seen enough Toronto games to give a fair evaluation.

[cherdanno]

I thought the discussion is about how good he is right now, not about his career. Obviously his career pales compared to many of those listed above.
Of course I never know who is center and who is PF so I have no idea whether he is among the top 3 PFs.

[Jlall]

So is the consensus that he's about in the 10-15 overall players in NBA, and like 4thish at his position?

[andrei]

jjbrr, on May 21 2010, 03:02 PM, said:

but to compare a bad team with Gasol to a bad team with Kobe is LOL. The bad team with Kobe still made the playoffs! In a good conference!

this wasn`t my point.

I was only trying to point out that Gasol upgraded an average-to-good Laker team to a great Laker team. Obviously he wouldn`t win without Kobe, but Kobe couldn`t win without Gasol either.

And is not like he wasn`t viewed as a very good player before joining the Lakers. Just search reactions to the 08 Memphis - Lakers trade and you would see that.

For example, here is what Gregg Popovich had to say about it:
http://larrybrownsports.com/basketball/gre...asol-trade/1291

I dont remember any other recent NBA trade that generated the same reactions.