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The Misadventures of Rex and Jay--#5743 Good hand , Long Diamonds

#1 User is offline   microcap 

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Posted 2010-October-22, 05:48

You are dealt the interesting collection of
.

First question: Is this a 2 club opener in 2/1 or sayc? Please elaborate yes or no.

Second question: Assuming you open 1, partner responds 1. What is your rebid and why?

Thanks
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#2 User is offline   wyman 

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Posted 2010-October-22, 05:59

View Postmicrocap, on 2010-October-22, 05:48, said:

You are dealt the interesting collection of
.

First question: Is this a 2 club opener in 2/1 or sayc? Please elaborate yes or no.

Second question: Assuming you open 1, partner responds 1. What is your rebid and why?

Thanks

1 is a style question.

2. 3C


"I think maybe so and so was caught cheating but maybe I don't have the names right". Sure, and I think maybe your mother .... Oh yeah, that was someone else maybe. -- kenberg

"...we live off being battle-scarred veterans who manage to hate our opponents slightly more than we hate each other.” -- Hamman, re: Wolff
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#3 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2010-October-22, 06:51

Well it is a style question as tp whether to open 2C or not, but I think a 3C rebid stinks. I would play 2NT as forcing and multi shaped.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#4 User is offline   wyman 

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Posted 2010-October-22, 07:11

View Postthe hog, on 2010-October-22, 06:51, said:

Well it is a style question as tp whether to open 2C or not, but I think a 3C rebid stinks. I would play 2NT as forcing and multi shaped.


Except that, per the OP, you are playing SAYC.
"I think maybe so and so was caught cheating but maybe I don't have the names right". Sure, and I think maybe your mother .... Oh yeah, that was someone else maybe. -- kenberg

"...we live off being battle-scarred veterans who manage to hate our opponents slightly more than we hate each other.” -- Hamman, re: Wolff
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#5 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2010-October-22, 07:23

Not a 2 opener for me, a simple 1 will be enough.

I play 3 rebid as GF, so I'd bid that (and denying a 3 card at the same time). Obviously that's not standard sayc or 2/1, but there's a reason why everyone plays something else with these kind of hands. ;) Without this agreement, I guess 3 has some merit, but I think I'd still bid 3/4. Does 4 show support in sayc and 2/1?
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#6 User is offline   microcap 

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Posted 2010-October-22, 07:28

View Postwyman, on 2010-October-22, 07:11, said:

Except that, per the OP, you are playing SAYC.


Though we are playing 2/1, Rex is always open to conventional suggestions so don't feel restrained! :lol:
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#7 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2010-October-22, 08:13

View Postmicrocap, on 2010-October-22, 05:48, said:

You are dealt the interesting collection of
.

First question: Is this a 2 club opener in 2/1 or sayc? Please elaborate yes or no.

Second question: Assuming you open 1, partner responds 1. What is your rebid and why?

Thanks

Another one where I can use Gnasher's "toy" and my followups:

1D - 1H
2S!- 2NT!
??
3C! = 3-of-other-minor)= 4s, no 3h, 5+d
3D! = long Diam, no 4s, no 3h
3H! = 3h, no 4s, 5+d
3S! = 4s AND 3h, 5+d

where:
2S! = GF and maybe artificial (Note: only works over a 1H Response )
......2NT! = asks
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Using the 2S! as artificial instead of 3C!( maybe artifical)GF
gives more room for info, AND when 3C is used, it is ALWAYS NATURAL !

AND, more importantly, you can reserve the 2NT jump rebid exclusively for your balanced 18,19 hcp hands.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Here is another one recently, only long Clubs:
http://www.bridgebas...ter-opening-1c/

Title: how2 force after opening 1C ...system issue
Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
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#8 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2010-October-22, 10:00

2 is wrong with 8 card suits, no need to look any further into the hand, if it contains an 8 card suit you are not doing well by opening 2.


After 1, even when I play 2NT GF rebid, I tend to have semibal hands for it, 3 is closer to what partner expects.
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#9 User is online   mike777 

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Posted 2010-October-22, 10:09

yes 1d open, 4 loser hand..not good enough for 2c.

I dont have a toy here so yes 3c rebid. Too good for 3d rebid which granted can be a wide ranging nf rebid so that is out.
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#10 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2010-October-22, 14:22

I hope you post Responder's hand...
( I'd like to see how it fits into my scheme of things... post # 7 ).
Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
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#11 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2010-October-22, 14:56

View PostFluffy, on 2010-October-22, 10:00, said:

2 is wrong with 8 card suits, no need to look any further into the hand, if it contains an 8 card suit you are not doing well by opening 2.

hmmm, really? On this particular hand I bid 1 because it is not strong enough for 2. But you seem to be saying that no hand with an 8 card suit should open 2? Or did I misunderstand?

Personally, for long-suited hands with less than ~21 hcp, I consider 2 if I am one trick short of game in my hand. Here I have only 9 tricks in my hand at diamonds, so 2 is right out.

I open 1 and rebid 3NT over 1, which I thought showed exactly this kind of hand, a long strong minor with outside stoppers.
Life is long and beautiful, if bad things happen, good things will follow.
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#12 User is offline   nigel_k 

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Posted 2010-October-22, 15:22

I would probably open 2 but I think it's close. After opening 1, definitely rebid 3 followed by diamonds. Partner should understand you will often not have real clubs when you rebid your original suit next but will know that club honours are useful and major suit honours below the ace are not.
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#13 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2010-October-22, 15:43

Nothing wrong with 2. You just need 1 bid to describe your hand later and that will be a diamond bid. The only problem is that sometimes you wrongside :)
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
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#14 User is offline   cloa513 

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Posted 2010-October-22, 15:46

View PostTWO4BRIDGE, on 2010-October-22, 08:13, said:

Another one where I can use Gnasher's "toy" and my followups:

1D - 1H
2S!- 2NT!
??
3C! = 3-of-other-minor)= 4s, no 3h, 5+d
3D! = long Diam, no 4s, no 3h
3H! = 3h, no 4s, 5+d
3S! = 4s AND 3h, 5+d

where:
2S! = GF and maybe artificial (Note: only works over a 1H Response )
......2NT! = asks
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Using the 2S! as artificial instead of 3C!( maybe artifical)GF
gives more room for info, AND when 3C is used, it is ALWAYS NATURAL !

AND, more importantly, you can reserve the 2NT jump rebid exclusively for your balanced 18,19 hcp hands.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Here is another one recently, only long Clubs:
http://www.bridgebas...ter-opening-1c/

Title: how2 force after opening 1C ...system issue

That copes with the heart overcall how about spades, do you blur the meaning of the 2H rebid or bid 2NT with Gnasher's tool?
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#15 User is offline   mr1303 

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Posted 2010-October-22, 16:10

Well I generally hate opening 2C with primary diamonds, but this is a hand that I'll make an exception on.

1) 1D 1 banana 3D is not forcing
2) 1D 1 banana 3C is an aberration
3) 1D 1 banana 4D shows 4 card banana support
4) 1D 1 banana 3NT shows a solid diamond suit. Besides which, this has too much slam potential for this bid.
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#16 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2010-October-22, 16:36

View Postmr1303, on 2010-October-22, 16:10, said:

Well I generally hate opening 2C with primary diamonds, but this is a hand that I'll make an exception on.

1) 1D 1 banana 3D is not forcing
2) 1D 1 banana 3C is an aberration
3) 1D 1 banana 4D shows 4 card banana support
4) 1D 1 banana 3NT shows a solid diamond suit. Besides which, this has too much slam potential for this bid.

I am very happy with 3, it focuses on KQ and we will most likelly be able to rectify any club contract to diamonds.

Besides I never expect opponents to pass all the time when I ahve an 8 card suit.
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#17 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2010-October-22, 16:43

View Postcloa513, on 2010-October-22, 15:46, said:

That copes with the heart overcall... How about spades? Do you blur the meaning of the 2H rebid or bid 2NT with Gnasher's tool?

As I said in my reply, the 2S! GF jump can ONLY be used over a 1H Response.

With a 1S Response you have to go with 3C!:
1D - 1S
3C! = GF and may be artificial
( I've shown my personal followups ... ad nauseum to many folks ... in other threads ).
Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
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#18 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2010-October-22, 17:31

It's an imperfect world, and as I teach the group that comes to my free before game lectures most Fridays, we all get lots of hands that don't match the examples we find in textbooks on bidding. So we need to choose the 'least' distortion.

2 is imo unmanageable....the prospects of preempting ourselves or of being preempted are too great, especially when we are 1-1 in the majors and our suit is not solid.

So 1 seems the best opening.

We can be mildly grateful that partner responded 1 rather than 1, since we have a sure stopper in spades, while had he bid that suit, we'd be nervous about our stopper.

We have to reach game now, so need to make a forcing bid. That eliminates a 3 call.

Absent specialized gadgets (and I don't have any anyway, intrigued tho I am by 2 artificial)the choice is between 3 and 3N.

3N classically shows a running 6+ minor and stoppers in the unbid suits: prototypically something like AJx x AKQJxxx Axx (yes, I see the 14 cards.....that's why I wrote 'something like') It's a hand that will have 8 or 9 cashers unless they run responder's suit on us. Since prototypical hands rarely appear outside of textbooks, most players will allow a fudge on the hand-type.

There are flaws for 3N: the lack of the diamond K being the main one, but the 8th diamond is another. Since one flaw suggests we are understrength and the other suggests the opposite, I can live with it.

3 is less immediately flawed since it is relatively 'normal' (for many players) to manufacture a jumpshift into a 3 card club suit. But for me the problem arises on the next round....I suspect that I will not be able to show the true nature of this hand over most anticipated rebids....so 3 probably leads to a less-informed auction than does 3N.

Nothing's perfect, which is where I came in, but 1 then 3N for me.
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#19 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2010-October-22, 17:50

View Postmicrocap, on 2010-October-22, 05:48, said:

You are dealt the interesting collection of
First question: Is this a 2 club opener in 2/1 or sayc? Please elaborate yes or no. Second question: Assuming you open 1, partner responds 1. What is your rebid and why?
IMO
  • 1 = 10, 2 = 6. 1 is unlikely be passed out. It makes it easier to insist on as trumps, in competition.
  • 3 = 10, 2 = 7, 3N = 6, 3 = 5. Don't risk partner passing, now that you've survived the first round of the auction.

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#20 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2010-October-22, 17:50

View Postmicrocap, on 2010-October-22, 05:48, said:

You are dealt the interesting collection of
.

First question: Is this a 2 club opener in 2/1 or sayc?

One thing that intrigues me about a 2C open is... wouldn't you love to hear a positive suit response showing 2-of-the-top-3 honors ! ! ... in either or .

Let's say you get to the 6D knowing partner doesn't hold the ♦K.
One testy problem is getting to dummy to pitch your two Cl losers.

However, if you got a positve Response showing 2-of-the-top-3, then you would have an entry...
at least to try the Diam finesse.
Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
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