[Valardent]

Imps

---

What is your bid? (any special treatments u know of?)


I bid 3♥, (looking for 3NT in first instance ; partner belongs to the aggressive bidders type)

on which p bids 4♣.

What do you think his hand type is and what do you bid now?

[Fluffy]

system sucks at this point, I'd just bid 4♣ because that's the best slam going tool I've got

[gnasher]

I'm quite happy to bid 4♣, especially as we've contrived to right-side it. If partner raises I'll bid six.

[whereagles]

I think I just bid 3NT...

[gwnn]

4♣ for me too

[Free]

Why isn't 3♥ natural? Don't you ever need to find a 5-3 or 6-2 fit ♥ when opener has a GF m hand? I would've bid 4♣ the previous round.

[gwnn]

2♣ shows a weak hand with diamonds or a strong hand with anything. I don't know what 4♣ should be over that but it's probably stronger than an 8 count.

[dake50]

If partner chose to use space with his 3D,
he expects 4C from this hand.
He had 2H,2S,2N to try
even a slight deviation
to save that space -- see what I had.
He's prepared for likely rebids.

[the_dude]

dake50, on 2011-January-06, 08:10, said:

If partner chose to use space with his 3D,
he expects 4C from this hand.
He had 2H,2S,2N to try
even a slight deviation
to save that space -- see what I had.
He's prepared for likely rebids.

Agree with Dake. Partner just knowingly used the most space consuming auction that exists. He is (or should be) extremely strong and well prepared to continue bidding at the 4-5 level if you think there is a slam about.

[Valardent]

This post is not heading in the direction I wanted to.

The aim wasn't to discuss slam possibilities but to bid having FIRST in mind finding the best game.

As I have warned, ptnr is very agressive. In fact, with his actual hand, only one game was (allmost) without any risks.

Let's pretend the hand is xx Kxx xx QJxxxx instead of the hand given in the diagram.

Do you still think 4♣ is obvious as most of the posters did?

[Fluffy]

No, then it is an obvious 3NT with 2 suits stopped and only 2 card support.

[gwnn]

So looks like you had one particular correct answer in mind and other answers were incorrect. If so, I'm not interested. If you want to create a quiz, please say so beforehand. Especially in the Advanced/Expert section.

[Valardent]

I understand your thinking and some of your frustration but no, I hadn't only one correct answer in mind.

What I wanted to debate is the nature of the 3M bids on such an auction.

I think one cannot assign ONLY a fully natural meaning to those bids (as guaranteeing a 5+ or 4+ cards suit).
One must be able with quite some hands to bid 3M with a 3 cards (or even 2) showing a concentration in the major and denying stopper in the other (as the 1st of many possible meanings) and/or in ♣ (due to lack of space, one cannot cover all cases)

In this context, the hand choosen is not a good example bcs 4♣ is a better bid (clearly in front of a "normal" 2♣ bid)

A more illustrating hand would be : xx KQx xx Q10xxxx

1) Do you think bidding 3M with that type of hand is best?

2) Only if 5♦ is a reasonable alternative facing a mini ♦one suiter GF hand (meaning : I hv no real♦ fit but sufficient high cards so that 5♦ shouldn't be in danger while 3NT could be)?

3) Or do you think, one should bid 3NT, as Fluffy stated, with 2 suits stopped and no real ♦ fit going with the odds that p stops the last one?

Such a sequence will always be problematic, so where do you put the limit of the natural essence of the 3M bid, or better said ; what distorsion of the 3M "natural suit" bid is for you acceptable?

[gnasher]

All of your examples look like 4♣ bids to me.

Regarding your primary question, one reasonable method is to play 3♥ over 3♦ as artificial, somewhere between a second negative and a waiting bid. 3NT over 3♦ shows 5+ hearts. If you combine that with using 2♣-2♦;3M as four of the major and five diamonds, you have a half-playable system.

Still, the best way to make this sequence work is not to have it very often. It's seems particularly foolish to stretch to open 2♣ on a hand where you're going to have to rebid 3♦.

[gwnn]

I am sorry - I think I misunderstood your previous post. My annoyance was unfounded.

No, I really don't think you should be allowed to rebid 3M on 3 cards. You should only be allowed to rebid 3M on 6 cards, and sometimes 5. Never 4. I don't agree with people who say that stoppers are irrelevant, but I really think that stoppers should be irrelevant in this auction. After all, opener promised a monster (and if he likes opening 2♣, particularly this kind, where responder will almost always bid 2♦, then he should stop it and start promising a monster), and if we have any points at all, we should have game. However, looking for a fit is very important and the only way we can look for a major suit fit is if responder's rebids here promise 5 cards there. Opener will not have 5 card support to play in a major.

This would be helped by a structure whereby opener's 3M rebids promise a 4 card major and 5 or 6 diamonds
(e.g. AKJx Ax AKJxxx x = 2♣-2♦; 3♠). Then we will usually find a major suit fit whenever we have one.

[mike777]

Valardent, on 2011-January-06, 03:58, said:

Imps

---

What is your bid? (any special treatments u know of?)


I bid 3♥, (looking for 3NT in first instance ; partner belongs to the aggressive bidders type)

on which p bids 4♣.

What do you think his hand type is and what do you bid now?

4c easy so far.

I think pard has a 3 loser hand with long D and no good 4 card major. pard would bid 3h or 3s with long d and good 4card major.

[Valardent]

This was the bidding :

---

It drifted 2 off for a well deserved loss of 15 imps as 5♦= was played in the other room.

[mgoetze]

Huh... and what did North think his 4♣ bid shows?

[gszeszycki]

this looks like a self created problem to me why did you not bid 3c right away??

please dont tell me you dont consider this a positive response hand--- after u bid 3c
it is easy to bid 4c and leaves p little doubt about the nature of your hand. The way you
are bidding it leaves partner completely clueless at best and worse misled (what would
you do if p suddenly bid say 6h). Bidding 4c now only helps p a tiny little bit.

[MrAce]

What would you bid with this, if 2♣ opener rebid 2♠ ? I dunno your system, but since no explenation written, i am assuming you play 3♣ as second neg over 2 M rebid. Thats why i would start 3♣ at the first place, to insure myself from a likely 2♠ rebid.

Now i am bidding 4♣.