[killjoys]

How would you suggest playing this sequence under the following conditions? Feel free to suggest it as jacoby if you can find a suitable use for 2NT (see below)

2/1, strong NT
you can already differentiate between WJS and constructive spade hands without it
you're playing 1M - 2C as a relay....... so for example you could make 2S jacoby (with whatever +ves and -ves that implies), but that would leave 2NT as unused because you don't need it as GF balanced
1M - 3x is currently natural invitational, but could be changed

obviously you've got lots of options.

thanks

[mtvesuvius]

3 Card unbalanced limit raise

[JLOGIC]

I really like playing 1H-2S as invitational (with 6 spades), same as your 1H-3m bids. The main thing is that this allows you to stop in 2S when you have an invite which is not really possible after 1H-1S-2x (when you have to bid 3S). It is also much more functional than 1H-3x because you have room to investigate.

For instance:

1H-2S
2N asking

and you can still have some accurate auctions. Yes, it's possible that partner will pass 2S when you make 5m or something, but those hands are not that likely.

I find that you can get to a lot more aggressive 4S games if you play this way because with something like 10 points and 6 medium spades you're not going to want to invite over 1H-1S-2x and will probably bid 2S, knowing that you might be missing game. If you can just bid 1H-2S to begin with, that helps a lot. On the flip side, when partner is rejecting your invite you don't have to go down in 3S.

The other way that I often play is that

1H 2S shows 6 spades and less than an invite. The point of this is to free up 1H-1S-2x-2S as artificial GF. I'm not sure if you use your 1H-2C GF relay with 5 spades or not, or if you bid 1S with that, if you always relay with GF hands then this will not be useful to you. If you don't then there is always the age old problem of 1H-1S-2D-3C FSF not leaving enough room, and 1H-1S-2H-??? having to invent new suits and stuff, and still not have enough room. This would solve that problem.

[awm]

I think there's a lot of gain in playing this jump as invitational with a six-card suit. Advantages include:

(1) It lets you get out in 2♠ on a decline invite, instead of having an auction like 1♥-1♠-2x-3♠.
(2) The above is especially good if your suit quality is not so great.
(3) Allows you to use 2NT as a shortness ask if opener has a big hand, which can be useful for slam or even game bidding.
(4) Lets you play 1♥-1♠-2x-3♠ as forcing, which reduces load on some other auctions.
(5) Has some preemptive effect on the opponents in case they have a minor suit.
(6) Lets you have some shorter game auctions (i.e. 1♥-2♠-4♠-Pass conceals opener's shape quite a bit).
(7) Is consistent with your other jump shifts (i.e. they're all invitational and natural).

Edit: Just noticed Justin posted the same idea with some slightly different reasons at the same time.

[mike777]

I play it as a stiff somewhere......2nt asks.

[JLOGIC]

Quote

(5) Has some preemptive effect on the opponents in case they have a minor suit.

Yeah this is a good point too, and actually I had a small gain in louisville recently because LHO passed 2S with a hand my teammates Xed 1H p 1S with at the other table and got to their 3m partial. They might have doubled 2S also, but it's a pretty dangerous auction to get involved in.

[kenrexford]

I agree that 1♥-P-2♠ as invitational with spades is fabulous, and this is what I play also.

[paulg]

Scottish expert standard is for 2♠ to show a 3-card limit raise in hearts. Given the state of Scottish bridge perhaps not a ringing endorsement for the method

I play that it shows 5-5 minors, inv+.

[Lurpoa]

killjoys, on 2011-March-28, 19:14, said:

How would you suggest playing this sequence under the following conditions? Feel free to suggest it as jacoby if you can find a suitable use for 2NT (see below)

2/1, strong NT
you can already differentiate between WJS and constructive spade hands without it
you're playing 1M - 2C as a relay....... so for example you could make 2S jacoby (with whatever +ves and -ves that implies), but that would leave 2NT as unused because you don't need it as GF balanced
1M - 3x is currently natural invitational, but could be changed

obviously you've got lots of options.

thanks

Playing BWS2001Defaults:



After Our Major-Suit Opening

..... a jump-shift shows more than ordinary game-going strength (the equivalent of 16-plus HCP), a substantial suit (at least five-cardlength with at least two of the top three honours), and one of threehand-types: balanced, one-suited, support

..... Passed-Hand Situations:

a jump-shift other than threeclubs is a strong raise with length in the suit bid;

Very good, and rather frequent sequences......

[TWO4BRIDGE]

How does Meckwell play it ?

I saw some discussion that:
1H - 2S = ~ 5-9 hcp weak/constructive

1H - 1S
2x - 3S = ~ 10-12 invite

and ( from Bridge World, Dec 2010 ):
1H - 1S
2D - 2S! = GF

[Free]

I play it as a 3 card raise, 9-14HCP, and with shortness (no good 5 card sidesuit when 12-14). Doesn't come up often as a GF variant but partner can evaluate nicely in that case. Also, with the 9-11 range we can show our shortness below 3-level. Not sure if it's all worth it however, because you tell opps to lead a trump.

A nice alternative imo is to use it as an INV or balanced minimum GF raise (around 10-13HCP). Opener can quickly signoff without giving away too much information, or he can start looking for slam. With stronger hands with fit you start with your relay, because in that case you don't mind giving away too much information. But then again, you can also use 2NT for that.

I've noticed it's a trend to keep the raise structure simple and use jumps in new suits as INV (or weak in case of ♠). In such a structure I'd definitely play it as 6+♠ but I'm not sure what the best strength is. INV has it's advantages, but so does the weak alternative.

AFAIK Meckwell play it as weak with ♠. Not sure about the philosophy behind it, probably quick-in quick-out and the possibility to force game at 2-level after 1♥-1♠-2♦.

[han]

I also like the invitational jump shift.

[tolvyrj]

Ok, now i know i reveal my self as an old school guy, but we play it as weak ( and i mean weak) long suit 7 carder.
Why is that so. Invitation can be done other way and even if u have long spade suit it is not sure prd has them. Another point is that if u bid it normal way 1 over 1 and then keep bidding them prd assumes u have something u dont have aka hcp.

[fromageGB]

OK, I like the idea of it being 6 card invitational, it sounds very good. But I currently use it to plug a hole in my methods, which is a 13-15 3 card heart support. What's the normal way of bidding that sort of hand ?

(We insist on a 2/1 being 5 cards, with an exception that 2♣ can be any suit 16+.)

[wank]

fromageGB, on 2011-March-30, 13:12, said:

OK, I like the idea of it being 6 card invitational, it sounds very good. But I currently use it to plug a hole in my methods, which is a 13-15 3 card heart support. What's the normal way of bidding that sort of hand ?

(We insist on a 2/1 being 5 cards, with an exception that 2♣ can be any suit 16+.)

the 'normal' way is not to have the hole in the first place - you've generated it with your 2/1 requirements.

i suppose you could respond 1NT and rebid 3NT though, assuming 1NT is 100% forcing

[kenrexford]

tolvyrj, on 2011-March-30, 12:27, said:

Ok, now i know i reveal my self as an old school guy, but we play it as weak ( and i mean weak) long suit 7 carder.
Why is that so. Invitation can be done other way and even if u have long spade suit it is not sure prd has them. Another point is that if u bid it normal way 1 over 1 and then keep bidding them prd assumes u have something u dont have aka hcp.

The reasons why invitational works better (IMO) than weak (and then inferential "better" with other auctions) are numerous.

First, consider a parallel of a minor opening. If you have a weak 5-card suit, you won't JS. If you bid your major and partner bids 1NT, youy might rebid your major to play the 5-2 (or 5-3). If that call shows extras, you force a WJS on a five-bagger or a bad pass of 1NT.

Second, an IJS if harder to overcall, and potentially more deadly when they do.

Third, when competitition does occur, an IJS helps.

[jallerton]

awm, on 2011-March-28, 19:44, said:

I think there's a lot of gain in playing this jump as invitational with a six-card suit. Advantages include:

(1) It lets you get out in 2♠ on a decline invite, instead of having an auction like 1♥-1♠-2x-3♠.
(2) The above is especially good if your suit quality is not so great.
(3) Allows you to use 2NT as a shortness ask if opener has a big hand, which can be useful for slam or even game bidding.
(4) Lets you play 1♥-1♠-2x-3♠ as forcing, which reduces load on some other auctions.
(5) Has some preemptive effect on the opponents in case they have a minor suit.
(6) Lets you have some shorter game auctions (i.e. 1♥-2♠-4♠-Pass conceals opener's shape quite a bit).
(7) Is consistent with your other jump shifts (i.e. they're all invitational and natural).

Edit: Just noticed Justin posted the same idea with some slightly different reasons at the same time.

Better still, invert your 1♥-2♠ and 1♥-1♠-2x-2♠ sequences. This has all of the advantages you mention (apart from (7) which doesn't really count as much of an advantage) with (5) occurring rather more often. Furthermore, you are more likely to have game/slam on when Responder has the IJO type, so there's more benefit in allowing Opener do make his natural rebid before the auction gets to the 2♠ level than when Responder has the WJO type.

Anyway, the original question from Killjoys stated that he could already show both WJS and IJS without using the sequence 1♥-2♠. We'd need to know the rest of his structure to answer that one, as invariably the best use of a spare jump is to fill in any system holes.

[jallerton]

kenrexford, on 2011-March-30, 13:23, said:

The reasons why invitational works better (IMO) than weak (and then inferential "better" with other auctions) are numerous.

First, consider a parallel of a minor opening. If you have a weak 5-card suit, you won't JS. If you bid your major and partner bids 1NT, youy might rebid your major to play the 5-2 (or 5-3). If that call shows extras, you force a WJS on a five-bagger or a bad pass of 1NT.

I don't understand this "advantage". After a 1NT rebid, there's room to differentiate between invitations and sign-offs anyway.

kenrexford, on 2011-March-30, 13:23, said:

Second, an IJS if harder to overcall, and potentially more deadly when they do.

True, but Opener is also well placed if Responder's WJS is overcalled, and if Responder has an IJS, next hand is less likely to want to overcall anyway.

kenrexford, on 2011-March-30, 13:23, said:

Third, when competitition does occur, an IJS helps.

It does, but WJS helps rather more. If the auction starts 1♥-P-1♠-3♣-P-P-? Responder is more unhappy about stretching to bid 3♠ with a WJS hand than with an IJS hand; it's more important to have already described the WJS hand at the 2-level.

[MrAce]

I play it invitational not only over 1♥ but also over a minor by unpassed hand for almost over 15 years and i love it. Bph its fit showing + natural.

Only situation where it shows 3 card supp and GF hand is when they DBL 1♥, the way i like.

1♥-DBL-2♠

[awm]

jallerton, on 2011-March-31, 16:54, said:

Better still, invert your 1♥-2♠ and 1♥-1♠-2x-2♠ sequences. This has all of the advantages you mention (apart from (7) which doesn't really count as much of an advantage) with (5) occurring rather more often. Furthermore, you are more likely to have game/slam on when Responder has the IJO type, so there's more benefit in allowing Opener do make his natural rebid before the auction gets to the 2♠ level than when Responder has the WJO type.

I haven't found this to be true in practice. There is an issue that it can be hard to bid an invite opposite a super-max in standard bidding. What happens is that the auction starts 1♥-1♠ and then opener rebids at the three-level. This cramps your sequence somewhat, and responder's initial invite isn't enough to push past game even opposite 18-19. I think you can have much better auctions by starting 1♥-2♠ and letting opener take control via asking bids, rather than having to start 1♥-1♠-3x-3♠. This is item (3) on my original list. Note that a slam auction opposite a constructive (like 5-8) 2♠ bid is extremely rare.

For item (5), bidding over 1♥-2♠ invitational is really risky! You will get doubled basically any time the opening side doesn't have a spade fit (i.e. you know you're outgunned). Bidding over 1♥-2♠ constructive is a lot safer; opener basically needs extras to double you which is possible but not odds-on. So I think the invitational jump gets you a lot more numbers out of the opponents (or just shuts them out of the auction completely, if they are a bit more conservative).

For item (6), when I have an invitational hand with spades a lot of the time we are just going to play in 4♠. I would much rather have the auction 1♥-2♠-4♠ than a slower auction 1♥-1♠-2x-2♠-4♠, because opener's extra call in there is much more likely to help the opponents on lead than to help my side. Another one is 1♥-2♠-3NT where opener might have a rather stronger holding in one minor than the other, whereas 1♥-1♠-2x-2♠-3NT reveals which is the four-card side suit. The invitational spade hand is much more likely to land in 4♠ than the weak spade hand is.

Finally, there are occasionally constructive hands where your choice of contract depends on opener's second bid. For example say I have six lousy spades; I might be happy to pass after 1♥-1♠-2♥, but willing to rebid my spades after 1♥-1♠-2m. Or say I have 5125; I might want to rebid my spades after 1♥-1♠-2♦ but obviously not after 1♥-1♠-2♣ or 1♥-1♠-2♥. The intermediate hand is more likely to have a good spade suit (more overall strength), and what I lose by finding the "wrong" partial (i.e. say I have 6232 and partner has six hearts and I play in 2♠ instead of finding my 6-2 heart fit) I might get back by being a level lower (i.e. on the aforementioned hand without 2♠ INV I might bid 1♥-1♠-2♥-3♥, reaching the better strain but one level higher).