[TWO4BRIDGE]

mike777, on 2011-April-06, 19:57, said:

4c sets clubs as trumps....

what is your next question?

What if Responder indeed has 5 cards Hts, slammish; what would he bid over Opener's 3H since he could not bid 4C as a cuebid ?
( I presume he couldn't use 4D as a cuebid either -- it would agree Diam ; that leaves only 3S as a cuebid-- which probably should mean either a cuebid OR looking for 3NT ).

I don't play it ( and probably I should )... but this hand seems like a poster child for XYZ 2-way checkback .

[Quantumcat]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-April-10, 16:15, said:

What if Responder indeed has 5 cards Hts, slammish; what would he bid over Opener's 3H since he could not bid 4C as a cuebid ?
( I presume he couldn't use 4D as a cuebid either -- it would agree Diam ; that leaves only 3S as a cuebid-- which probably should mean either a cuebid OR looking for 3NT ).

I don't play it ( and probably I should )... but this hand seems like a poster child for XYZ 2-way checkback.

He should start off assuming that reponder does not have three hearts otherwise he would have raised.
He should not be using 4th suit forcing to look for three hearts - with three hearts opener will be strong and will show them on his own. Using 4th suit forcing just makes things confusing, opener might have one or two hearts and not another bid (he has no extra diamonds, no extra clubs, and no spade stopper).
He should use fourth-suit forcing for a particular purpose - either to bid hearts strongly (if a jump to 3♥ is not gameforcing), to set one of opener's suits as trumps strongly, or to look for 3NT. 4♣ is setting clubs, 4♦ is setting diamonds, 4♥ is to play (probably was looking for 3NT, but opener says he can't help).

[Yu18772]

Quantumcat, on 2011-April-06, 20:46, said:

The reason is to make about 20 auctions clear instead of muddy. The only disadvantage is playing in a 4-3 fit at the two-level which could easily be a better spot that 1NT anyway. Besides the 20 auctions that become clear with this agreement, it is harder for the opponents to balance (opps having a fit means we must have one - but they don't have to have a fit, so it is dangerous to balance). This is actually the main attractant to playing Acol! (the inability of opps to balance effectively after for example 1♥-2♥.) In my experience, it is intermediate+ standard, not taught to beginners to whom it needs to be drilled into that you need 8 cards for a trump suit, but standard to anyone who has taken the time to think about it or has played with someone who has.

Sorry, but I have seen plenty of expert+ players who dont play it. The first time I encountered this is when I came to US less than a year ago, in ACBL and upon agreement. I agree that from time to time it would make your life easier on a partscore, but I would rather make sure to get to the right game/slam than optimise 1NT or 2♥, with devoting a whole level of bidding to finding out if the support is true. With this logic you might argue it is good to support partner's major opening with a doubleton, or open 4 card major (which still works for some people, but it is far from standard)....:-)
Obviously if you have a regular partner and that works for you, great, but I think that experts generally have no problem showing 3 card support later on (unless they always want to be the captain in the bidding) or asking for it.
About balancing - it also goes for your partner, she/he also have no idea to what level to compete to, and having 5 card will end up bidding 3 level, just to show that the fit is guaranteed, or an opener with 4 card will bid again just to show 4 card.....

Quantumcat, on 2011-April-06, 20:46, said:

Next time you have a five card major you have responded with, and have a bidding problem and end up having to invent a suit or something, think about whether this auction might be a little simpler for you if you knew for sure partner didn't have three cards in your suit :-)

I never "end up having to invert", or rebid 5 card suit. My partner is intelligent enough to know that her bidding limits my and to what extent.

Quantumcat, on 2011-April-06, 20:46, said:

Just in case you don't know how usual auctions go with this standard agreement:
1♣-1♥
2♥-2NT = invitational with four hearts. Opener can pass (holding 3 cards) or correct to 3/4♥ (holding 4) or 3NT (holding 3)

1♣-1♥
2♥-3NT = GF with four hearts. Opener can pass (holding 3 cards) or correct 4♥ (holding 4)

I do know - just find it wasteful. For me long and short trial bids a much more useful conventions to get to right difficult games and avoid wrong slams.
Having another level of bidding - does wonders for the invitational + hands without the need to jump anywhere.....

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Quantumcat, on 2011-April-10, 18:51, said:

--He should start off assuming that reponder does not have three hearts otherwise he would have raised.

--He should not be using 4th suit forcing to look for three hearts - with three hearts opener will be strong and will show them on his own.

--Using 4th suit forcing just makes things confusing, opener might have one or two hearts and not another bid (he has no extra diamonds, no extra clubs, and no spade stopper).

--He should use fourth-suit forcing for a particular purpose:

a ) either to bid hearts strongly (if a jump to 3♥ is not gameforcing),
b ) to set one of opener's suits as trumps strongly, or
c ) to look for 3NT.

-- ( after 3H by opener ) 4♣ is setting clubs, 4♦ is setting diamonds, 4♥ is to play (probably was looking for 3NT, but opener says he can't help).

I think I like your treatment here.
Immediately raise responder's Major w/3 when MINIMUM, but do not with "extras" ( bid 2C instead ) .
( And Responder can still get out with a 2NT rebid ) .

After 2C and a 4th Suit GF bid , if Opener THEN bids 3H, it will show 3 cards but this time w/"extras" .

This way it becomes clear if next Responder bids one of Opener's suits, it shows SUPPORT ( strongly ) and THAT was the reason fo the 4th suit GF -- and CANCELS interest in Responder's Major ( Hts here ) .

[TWO4BRIDGE]

zasanya, on 2011-April-05, 01:05, said:

Thank you guys for your replies.

I have suggested to my P the following scheme
1♦-1♥/♠-2♣-FSF
2NT= stopper in FS -3C by responder =looking for 3 card support for his Major Now if opener shows 3 card support he bids it showing a (1-3)-(5-4) shape with singleton Ace.
Do you think this scheme will work?

It may work for you, but may LOSE Responder's real intent of the 4th suit GF as noted by quantumcat ! !
Namely, Responder may want to rebid Clubs to show strong interest in Opener's 1st bid suit ( and cancel interest in the major ) .

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Here is another approach after 4th suit GF ... as an alternative to Quantumcat's .

I checked my notes and this was suggested by Priorknowledge ( a sometimes poster here ) .

Granted the 4th suit GF auction 1D - 1H, 2C - 2S! takes up a lot of "room" for Opener's 3rd bid.

PK suggests that Opener make the
"cheapest constructive bid " rather than show 3 card support for Responder's major as a 1st priority.

Thus, for this hand:
1D - 1H
2C - 2S!
2NT = stop in the 4th suit, but may have 3 card Ht support also

This leaves room for Responder to show his real intent for 4SGF on the THREE-level:

3C or 3D = strong support for one of Opener's suits ( cancelling Ht interest )
3H = strong hand w/Hts ( not necessarily more than 5 cards ), stronger than making a 3H-jump over 2C
3S = strong 4s/4+h or
3NT

If Opener rebids 3H ( instead of 2NT ) it would deny a Sp-stop while showing 3 card Ht support.
However, 3C or 3D by Opener may still be a "cheaper" constructive bid ( extra length ) in lieu of a 3H bid.

[aguahombre]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-April-11, 11:23, said:

Thus, for this hand:
1D - 1H
2C - 2S!
2NT = stop in the 4th suit, but may have 3 card Ht support also

"PK" must get dealt a lot of stiff Aces in the fourth suit.

[xxhong]

A better treatment is not to play 4th suit gameforcing. Instead, you can do the following:
1D 1H
2C:

2D/H: sign offs.
2S: different invitational hands.
2N: minimum, now responder can show his type of invitation.
With extra, opener can bid his hand naturally.
2N: 5+ Hearts, gf.
3C/D: gf, natural.
3H: set up H as trumps, natural.
3S: splinter.
The biggest problem for standard treatment is that it only give one bid for gf hands and several bids for invitational hands.
It's very ineffective and ridiculous to make 2NT/3C/D/H all to show invitational hands and only 2S as gf.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

aguahombre, on 2011-April-11, 11:40, said:

"PK" must get dealt a lot of stiff Aces in the fourth suit.

You do have a point!

I wonder if "switching the meanings" for 2NT and 3H is a viable solution?? for this ONE 4SGF auction:
1D - 1H
2C - 2S!
??
.. 2NT! = 3h ( and more than likely NO Sp-stop ... unless the stiff Sp Ace )
...3H! = NO 3h, but have Sp-stop(s)

[ But actually, I rather like XXHong's scheme for this 1D-1H-2C-?? auction ] .

[mike777]

zasanya, on 2011-April-05, 01:05, said:

Thank you guys for your replies.The actual hand and subsequent tragi-comic biding of me and my P was as follows.

---

My 4♣ was intended as minorwood not realising that P would take it as cue .His 4 ♦was intended as cue but i took it as 1st step in our version of minorwood .It asks P to reply to rkc in ♣ rather than answering .At this point I should have realised what was happening as there cannot be a reason for him to ask rather than answer.I answered 5 ♣=2 kc with ♣ Q and my P took it to mean ♣AK and I had to play 6♥ which had no chance.
The correct contract seems to be 5 clubs.If instead of ♠ Ace N had ♣ Ace then 6 ♣ seems reasonable.
Without a relay system it doesnt seem possible to accurately reach 5 ♣.Most systems will take you to 3 NT or 6 ♣.
I have suggested to my P the following scheme
1♦-1♥/♠-2♣-FSF
2NT= stopper in FS -3C by responder =looking for 3 card support for his Major Now if opener shows 3 card support he bids it showing a (1-3)-(5-4) shape with singleton Ace.
Do you think this scheme will work?

N has a tough rebid. I prefer 2h rather than 2c.

My second choice would be 1nt(11-13) just to limit my hand and avoid bidding 2c on xxxx of clubs. A 2c rebid is such a wide wide range and I really have a minimum hand. I also limit my hand to 3 spades.

Now as other have stated south may bid 2d xyz. Now you may get to 4h(4-3 fit) or you may or may not make 3nt on a spade lead.

[Quantumcat]

mike777, on 2011-April-11, 17:23, said:

Now as other have stated south may bid 2d xyz. Now you may get to 4h(4-3 fit) or you may or may not make 3nt on a spade lead.

Assuming you meant 2♦ as a trasfer, you can't bid 2♦ after 1♦-1♥, 1NT. That shows an extra heart. Six if opener tends to raise with 3, five if he doesn't.

[mike777]

Quantumcat, on 2011-April-11, 18:43, said:

Assuming you meant 2♦ as a trasfer, you can't bid 2♦ after 1♦-1♥, 1NT. That shows an extra heart. Six if opener tends to raise with 3, five if he doesn't.

no


2d XYZ does not promise an extra heart it is just art and game force. It never promises 5 of the major.

However you may often have 5 or more of the major, I agree.

[Quantumcat]

Oh ok, XYZ to me means a different convention.

2♣ is a puppet to 2♦ intending to sign off or show any invitational hand.
Everything else below 3NT is a transfer, either signoff or gameforce.

e.g.
1♣-1♦(hearts)
1♥(3 hearts)-2♣
2♦-2♠(invite with 4-4 majors)

1♣-1♥(spades)
1NT(denying 3 spades)-2♥(6+ spades)
2♠-3NT(offering choice of contracts with exactly 6 spades)

1♣-1♠(denying a major)
1NT-2♣
2♦-3NT(invite to 6NT)

[inquiry]

Let me propose an alternative.

1♦ - 1♥
2♣ - 2♠
?
------------------------------------------
2NT = spade stopper minimum for auction, NF
3♣ = five or more clubs
3♦ = transfer to 3♥, showing 3 ♥s
3♥ = transfer to 3♠, showing 3♠'s
3♠ = no spade stopper, less than 3♥'s, maximum
3NT = spade stopper, less than 3 ♥, maximum


Over the 2NT bid responder can bid 3♣ or 3♦ establishing fit, rebid 3♥ forcing
Over the 3♣ bid, responder can rebid 3♠ (club fit), 3♦, diamond fit, 3♥ hearts and forcing
Over 3♦, responder can bid 3♥ (slam try in hearts], 3♠ transfer to clubs,4♣ transfer to diamonds

I am not suggesting this is perfect, but it solves a few protential problems. For instance, fits are shown at the three level, there is no confusion of should 4♣ on the original post be for hearts or clubs, and you can stop in 4 of a minor when 3NT is unplayable, for instance,

1♦ - 1♥
2♣ - 2♠
3♦ - 3♠ (where 3♠ shows club fit
4♣ - Pass (where 4♣ is no ♠ stopper and minimum (with singleton ace, or king, could try to play 3NT)

or


1♦ - 1♥
2♣ - 2♠
3♦ - 3♠ (where 3♠ shows club fit
3N - 4♣ (where 4♣ says willing to stop and not willing to play 3NT opposite singleton honor)
Pass

While I would have never rebid a four card club suit to the 9 on the second round (I would have raised to 2H's), with such a 2♣ bid, the hand given in the op might therefore be bid as follows:

Where,
3♦ showed 3 card heart support
3♠ showed ♣ fit and denies hearts will be trump suit
3NT showed singelton ace or king of spades, and therefore 1=3=5=4 or maybe 1=3=4=5 if you bid that way
4♦ can be cue-bid or if you prefer minorwood, whatever you play, responder does not bid 4♣ which would be passable
4♥ cue-bid
5♣ responder has tried hard enough
6♣ with two aces, and the king of hearts, seems like north has to bid the slam on this auction, if club ace was onside it would make

---

The idea of 3♦ as transfer and the 3♠ and 4♣ transfers come from my own extension of concepts provided in K. Martens "waiting bid" book. This specific auction (2♠ 4th suit forcing after a this start) is not in the book. I suspect this is an oversight, but would not be surprised if it was in his book on extended transfers bids. Of course, he probably would not agree with all the proposed method I gave above, but he does use 3♦ as a transfer showing heart support on a number of other auctions (as well as other transfers similar to ones I propose above) in the waiting bid book. This is how I would apply the examples he gave on other auctions to this one off the top of my head.