[ahydra]

Suppose you're one of a semi-regular-but-not-very-in-depth partnership. Your partner opens 1C [Benji, weak NT, 4cM system] and you respond 1S holding:

♠Q10xx
♥xxx
♦Kxx
♣KQx

LHO bids 2H. Partner jumps to 5S. What does 5S mean? Do you bid 6?

ahydra

[gszes]

typically 5s here asks for heart control to bid 6

so PASS

p might have something like

AKJx xx void AJTxxxx

[jdeegan]

Pass. Whatever partner wants, I don't have.

[sasioc]

I would not consider bidding. It's not obvious to me exactly what p needs because I'd be likely to splinter or bid 3H on most hands instead of bid 5S to avoid any ambiguity but whatever it is p is after I don't have it.

[manudude03]

Whatever it means, partner doesn't have it. I also think it asks for a heart control though.

[the hog]

gszes, on 2011-October-07, 13:43, said:

typically 5s here asks for heart control to bid 6

so PASS

p might have something like

AKJx xx void AJTxxxx

Typically 5S here asks me to bid 6 if the quality of my S is good. They aren't great, so I pass. Partner has the H control of course.

[Hanoi5]

the hog, on 2011-October-07, 19:26, said:

Typically 5S here asks me to bid 6 if the quality of my S is good. They aren't great, so I pass. Partner has the H control of course.

When we're the only ones bidding this applies. When they intervene this agreement changes, I believe.

[Vampyr]

gszes, on 2011-October-07, 13:43, said:

typically 5s here asks for heart control to bid 6

Well... what is, I think, more typical is when their suit is below ours, that 5 of their suit is asking for a control and 5 of our suit asks for something else. Maybe trumps or some other agreement.

[MrAce]

Vampyr, on 2011-October-07, 20:38, said:

Well... what is, I think, more typical is when their suit is below ours, that 5 of their suit is asking for a control and 5 of our suit asks for something else. Maybe trumps or some other agreement.

So we cant play exclusion keycard when their suit is below ours ?

If he wants to learn my trump quality/honors he can use RKCB. If he has a void he can use EKCB. And we can ask control in enemy suit by 5 of our major.

[Vampyr]

MrAce, on 2011-October-07, 20:57, said:

So we cant play exclusion keycard when their suit is below ours ?

Of course we can; my mistake. I am thinking about when the 5-level bid is not a jump, which is not relevant to this auction. Am up and typing way too late.

[whereagles]

I have a meaning agreed for 5S, i.e. trump quality ask. Pass thus.

Without agreement 5S is the sort of bid that deserves to be cheered with a 6D response, passing the headache back to pard.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

jdeegan, on 2011-October-07, 13:47, said:

Pass. Whatever partner wants, I don't have.

Ditto

[dake50]

What's the other bids/auction plans partner didn't use?
This 5S must be some case not handled lower in YOUR scheme.
My partnership has no bidding scheme 5S bid over 2H.
Control ask is incorporated lower.
Spade support is asked lower.
Thus 5S must show a spade suit intending to make
opponents guess 6H or defend 5S with no lower exchange.

[Phil]

Partner is asking for a heart control.

There are other five level jumps that are ambiguous, but this is not one of them.

[han]

Partner cannot make this bid when you have this hand.

[aguahombre]

han, on 2011-October-08, 16:23, said:

Partner cannot make this bid when you have this hand.

Maybe she can't, but the good news is that it doesn't matter what it means and I can't screw it up, this time.

[helene_t]

Obviously 5♠ can't be meant as heart control ask here but it could be a trump quality ask.
Partner opened 1♣ without ♣KQ so she must have everything else. Our trumps may not suffice but they are better than they might have been. More importantly, our club holding is gold.
AKJx-(void)-AQJ-AJTxxx is a (sub) minimum for 5♠ and opposite that hand we want to be in 7.
AKxxx-(void)-A-AJxxxxx is another possibility.
So I don't think we can pass.

[MrAce]

helene_t, on 2011-October-08, 16:44, said:

Obviously 5♠ can't be meant as heart control ask here but it could be a trump quality ask.

Just for the same reasons it should not be asking trump quality either. 5♠ is whatever it is by default in the agreement. If we dont have a default then logic kicks in. Whatever pd has, he doesnt have this bid.

-Does he have alternative ways to learn trump quality ?
-Does he have alternative ways to learn ♥ stopper ?

But the argument you and Han makes, which is that we should know what pd did not mean because we have KQ of ♣, is irrelevant, unless you tell me how i was supposed to know what pd meant if i didnt hold the ♣ KQ ? Are u guys telling me pd somehow knew we hold them so he figured that we can figure what he meant ? And so we should ?

Seeing ♣KQ in hand does not mean anything except that pd does not have his bid, whether that would be asking trump quality or ♥ control.

Look at the hands you constructed, they will have hell of a play in slam vs pd's 0 hcp and 5-6 small ♠. Do u really think he would bid 5♠ with this ? By the way, there is no 5M bid that i heard of, which is forcing to slam and seeking grandslam. Even if u play Josephine style 5NT is forcing to slam and seeks for grand depending on trump honors. In standart trump quality asking 5M bids asks pd to bid slam with 2 of top 3 honors. But most of them are abondened after exclusion keycard became popular and/or after people decided to use it for control asking purposes.

EDIT: Sorry, Han, first i thought u said "Pd can not be asking ♥ stopper with what u had" Now i see u just said what i tried to say, which is whatever he has he doesnt have this bid due to our hand.

[ahydra]

Thanks for the replies - this is very interesting Having read your replies it seems I probably was a bit optimistic partner would get the right idea.

As I mentioned, we're not a serious partnership by any means, so we have no agreements about 5-level jumps at all. We play RKC 3041 but not Exclusion.

My actual hand was

♠AKJx ♥x ♦A ♣Axxxxxx

I was trying to say "bid 6 if you have a club control". Perhaps I should have bid 4H, then 5S, showing a good hand with a heart control and inviting slam?

ahydra

[han]

Yeah that's what I meant. Of course if this happened at the table, I wouldn't leave it at that. I would conclude that partner can't have intended 5S as I think that he has, and I'd try to figure out exactly what he can have.

It's difficult though. With something like AKxxx x A AJ10xxx, I think he should bid 4H and then raise 4S to 5S. Maybe he made a big overbid and has AKJxx xx - AJ10xxx, and just got lucky we hold such a good hand.