[Bende]

I was looking for a new system for major suit raises and looked at some posts by Fred Gitelman and Justin Lall. I landed on the following by combining the ideas I found and changing a couple of things around. Does it make sense to play something like this?

The base system is a 5533 2-over-1 with semi-forcing 1NT. In non-disturbed bidding, 3M is preemptive, 3M-1 is a mixed raise, 3M-2 is a limit raise with 4+ support. Cheapest jump shift (1♥-2♠ or 1♠-3♣) is a forcing raise with 4+ support.

After interference, 3M is still preemptive and 3M-1 is still a mixed raise. 2NT is INV+ with support. Depending on the room available, the highest available free bid shows INV+ with three card support (then not needed in the 2NT response) and the next shows a game force with three card support (then not needed with the INV hands with three card support). That is:

1♥ - (1♠) -
2♠ = GF, 3 card support
2NT = INV+, 4+ support
3♣ = INV, 3 card support
3♦ = mixed
3♥ = preemptive

1♥ - (2♣) -
2NT = INV+, 4+ support
3♣ = INV+, 3 card support
3♦ = mixed
3♥ = preemptive

1♥ - (2♦) -
2NT = INV+, 3+ support
3♦ = mixed
3♥ = preemptive

1♠ - (2♣) -
2NT = INV+, 4+ support
3♣ = GF, 3 card support
3♦ = INV, 3 card support
3♥ = mixed
3♠ = preemptive

1♠ - (2♦) -
2NT = INV+, 4+ support
3♦ = INV+, 3 card support
3♥ = mixed
3♠ = preemptive

1♠ - (2♥) -
2NT = INV+, 3+ support
3♥ = mixed
3♠ = preemptive

Another idea is to always separate 4 card support from 3 card support, which means giving up the mixed raise (or the preemptive raise). I.e.

1♥ - (2♦) -
2NT = INV+, 4+ support
3♦ = INV+, 3+ support
3♥ = preemptive (or mixed)

1♠ - (2♥) -
2NT = INV+, 4+ support
3♥ = INV+, 3+ support
3♠ = preemptive (or mixed)

Comments are most appreciated.

[whereagles]

You don't want to use fit bids? They're rare, but useful. And if you let go the 4-card support requirement, the frequency goes up considerably.

I agree however that the other sort of raises are much more common (mixed, pree, GF, etc).

[Statto]

In the uncontested auction you give up being able distinguish the strength range of responding but not GF hands with a minor - I thought this to be a compelling argument against mini-splinters in 2/1, but maybe you can handle this, or don't consider it a major concern.

In the contested auction with a simple overcall, I like it, all free bids are available (I don't think this would be compatible with NFBs though, or maybe it could be), the only concern would be that it may be harder to find 3NT when that is the best spot, but again that's probably a minor concern. It's common to use either a cue bid of the enemy suit or (less common) 2NT to show a good raise, and I don't see much use for a jump bid after an overcall (except mini-splinter or some other game try), so this seems to be a reasonable logical conclusion

[gnasher]

Quote

Another idea is to always separate 4 card support from 3 card support, which means giving up the mixed raise (or the preemptive raise).

I think that distinguishing between 3-card and 4-card support is more important than distinguishing between invitational and mixed raises. I also think that mixed raises are more useful than preemptive raises. Hence I prefer your second scheme, with the direct raise in a crowded sequence being mixed rather than weak.

[Cyberyeti]

Have you also considered what to do over a double ?

Does anybody else use 1M-X-1N as a raise ? I know we do.

[Bende]

In uncontested auctions, invitational hands with a minor has to go through the semi-forcing 1NT. Today I play 3m as natural INV which makes those hands easier. They don't seem very common though so the idea now was to use the 3m bids for something else.

As Statto pointed out, we will not play negative free bids.

Over double the idea is to play transfers starting at 1NT, with redouble showing about 8+ BAL-ish, usually without support. Transfers may be lead directing, intending to go back to 2M if the opponents go silent. Maybe 3M-1 should be mixed and other 3m should be fit-showing. 2NT will show INV+ with 4+ support.

[Zelandakh]

Your solution has many features in common with mine. I have posted this several times already so once again apologies for the regulars.

Over 1M:-
2M is a weak raise, usually 3 trumps but 4 is possible if the hand does not seem right for 3M-1 or 3M;
2M+1 is either a mini-splinter or an in-between splinter with 4+ trumps;
2M+2 is a GF raise with 4+ trumps;
2M+3 (= 3M-2) is a limit raise with 4+ trumps and a slightly wider range than if it were 3M;
2M+4 (= 3M-1) is a mixed raise;
3M and 4M are preemptive;
3M+1 is a void splinter with 4+ trumps;
3M+2 to 3M+4 are normal splinters showing a singleton.

Art has a very similar structure too.

With 3 trumps and a better hand I start with 1M+1 which I use as an invitational or better relay. Playing 2/1 you could obviously pass these through a forcing NT response if desired.

On the competitive auctions, straube had a practically identical thread only a few weeks back so no desire to go through all of them again, sorry.

[bluecalm]

It's useful to have invite with long hearts somewhere when playing semiforcing 1NT.
Without it the disasters are spectacular (although quite rare).

You have four bids after 1S: 2N/3C/3D/3H. I would use one of those for 6+hearts, 9-11. Say 3C as it allows for useful operational 3D call.
Out of 4 bids after 1S: 2N/3C/3D/3H I would use one for 9-11, 6+hearts, preferably 3C.

[Bende]

 bluecalm, on 2012-February-15, 06:03, said:

It's useful to have invite with long hearts somewhere when playing semiforcing 1NT.
Without it the disasters are spectacular (although quite rare).

You have four bids after 1S: 2N/3C/3D/3H. I would use one of those for 6+hearts, 9-11. Say 3C as it allows for useful operational 3D call.
Out of 4 bids after 1S: 2N/3C/3D/3H I would use one for 9-11, 6+hearts, preferably 3C.

You have a point about the heart INV bid. I'd be most ready to sacrifice the preemptive raise. Let's assume 1♠-3♠ is mixed and 1♠-3♥ is natural INV. It loses some symmetry. Then again, it is possible to regain this by having 1♥-3♥ be mixed and 1♥-3♦ a preemptive raise. It feels strange to have the preemptive raise in somewhere else than in 3♥ but I think Fred uses this. Maybe since the mixed raise is more common (at least I think it is) it makes sense to have it in 3M.

[ArtK78]

 Cyberyeti, on 2012-February-15, 02:51, said:

Have you also considered what to do over a double ?

Does anybody else use 1M-X-1N as a raise ? I know we do.

Many play transfers over a double. I play transfers beginning with 1NT. So:

1♥ - (x):

1♠ - Natural, forcing.
1NT - shows clubs.
2♣ - shows diamonds.
2♦ - "good" raise to 2♥
2♥ - "bad" raise to 2♥

1♠ - (x):

1NT - shows clubs.
2♣ - shows diamonds.
2♦ - shows hearts
2♥ - "good" raise to 2♠
2♠ - "bad" raise to 2♠

[benlessard]

Everybody is going to have strong opinions on this one and im no exception

This is what I play when I play 2/1

1H -- ??
2S = natural, to give up 2S natural is poor Imo. To give up 2S natural to play Jacoby is insane.
2NT = Jac but anything else is probably better, JAC 2nt is one of the worse convention I know . Its somewhere between 1Nt forcing(worst of all) and Capp.
3C = 4 trumps, mixed or limit, partner bid 3H with min and 3D to ask if im mixed or limit. This work well enough for me.
3D limit 3 trumps
3H preempt but not total trash. I prefer it to be 4-6 and my mixed raise to be 7-9

I like to play that my all splinters are voids (3S to 4D). So i can easily be convinced to play 2Nt as any splinter or jacoby.

[Flameous]

For the actual subject, I can just say that I play fitjumps in addition to limit+ Jacoby and I like them. I have very little constraints for them, either 3/6 or 4/5, strength is something along mixed+, most restrictive thing is that I always want 2/3 honors in the side suit. (1♠ - 3♥ is nat inv though)
1M - 3M is wide ranging, more like pre but includes mixed raises that can't be handled with other bids. Vul it's more like mixed raise anyways.

I was just dazed by Ben playing all splinters as voids. What you use 3NT for? Since if it's free, you could just play funny splinters.

Funny splinters for those unfamiliar:

1♠ ->
3NT = Any singleton splinter, 4♣ asks
4x = Void splinter

1♥ ->
3♠ = Any singleton splinter
3NT = Void splinter in spades

You can switch them if you like but this enables you to hide the shortness more often after 1S - 3NT - 4S

[MrAce]

 Cyberyeti, on 2012-February-15, 02:51, said:

Have you also considered what to do over a double ?

Does anybody else use 1M-X-1N as a raise ? I know we do.

I played it for long when i was back in Turkey and i like it. It is perfect for those of us who are lazy to discuss xfer responses after 1M-X imo.

[Bende]

Thanks for all feedback! Things are improving. However, I've run into another issue.

Following Fred Gitelman's suggestion from his article series "Improving 2/1 game force", I'm using 1M-2NT as natural forcing, (12)13-15 or 18+, and cheapest jump shift as a forcing raise. The point is that 2/1 becomes a good five card suit. Other raises are 3M mixed, 3M-1 preemptive and 3M-2 a limit raise (or minimum GF) with 4+ support. 2M is a normal raise and the semi-forcing 1NT can include a very weak raise or a limit raise with three card support.

In the article series, Fred mentions that it is possible to use 3NT as 16-17 balanced with two or three card support. However, Fred has also suggested to use two-tier splinters (which is what he played with Brad Moss), when 3NT is used for that purpose. So my question is, what is done with the hands with 16-17 balanced? I suppose they can still bid 2/1 since they maybe have strength to compensate, but if the idea was that 2/1 should always be a good five card suit, this is somewhat ugly.

[aguahombre]

We believe that the 16-17 balanced ones sort of take care of themselves. In a strong NT context where 1NT is opened with the range and a five-card major, 2NT balanced on a bit more than the expected 13-15 doesn't seem to cost. Opener will bid a new suit with the intermediate 5-4 hands, and we can show our extra strength.

In a truly forcing NT style, a 2-step 1M-1NT-something-3NT can be used for G.F. balanced with 3-M support, giving opener a choice of strain between 3NT and 4M.

[Bende]

 aguahombre, on 2012-February-17, 11:29, said:

We believe that the 16-17 balanced ones sort of take care of themselves. In a strong NT context where 1NT is opened with the range and a five-card major, 2NT balanced on a bit more than the expected 13-15 doesn't seem to cost. Opener will bid a new suit with the intermediate 5-4 hands, and we can show our extra strength.

In a truly forcing NT style, a 2-step 1M-1NT-something-3NT can be used for G.F. balanced with 3-M support, giving opener a choice of strain between 3NT and 4M.

Mixing in some ideas from Levin-Weinstein with the ones we already had from Gitelman-Moss, and shifting things around a bit, we came up with the following which feels OK.

1♥ -
1NT = semi-forcing
2♠ = 4+ support, GF raise
2NT = 13-15 or 18+ balanced
3♣ = 16-17 balanced
3♦ = 4 card support, limit raise or minimum GF
3♥ = 4 card support, mixed raise
3♠ = 4 card support, 10-12, any splinter
3NT = 4 card support, 13-15, spade splinter
4m = 4 card support, 13-15, minor splinter

1♠ -
1NT = forcing
2NT = 13-15 or 18+ balanced
3♣ = 4+ support, GF raise
3♦ = 16-17 balanced
3♥ = 4 card support, limit raise or minimum GF
3♠ = 4 card support, mixed raise
3NT = 4 card support, 10-12, any splinter
4x = 4 card support, 13-15, splinter

[32519]

What is the difference between:
1.) An invitational raise?
2.) A mixed raise?

An illustrative hand of each will be much appreciated!

Thank you.

[aguahombre]

 32519, on 2012-February-26, 09:51, said:

What is the difference between:
1.) An invitational raise?
2.) A mixed raise?

I will give this one a shot by explaining how we use those terms. Others might vary a bit.

There are preemptive raises, based on mostly just a lot of trump support for partner and nothing else.

There are raises which we would like partner to take as an invite to bid game.

There are hands with a lot of trump support, and a little something else. The hand is somewhere in-between a purish preempt and an invite; hence, mixed.

For example, pairs who play inverted minor suit raises (with or without competition), might define the jump to 3m as not inviting game, yet not totally broke ---a minimum responding hand with 5+ in the minor. That is a mixed raise.

[32519]

I forgot to add the third possibility; what is a limit raise?

So I am looking for what defines the three different types of raises:
1.) Limit raise?
2.) Mixed raise?
3.) Invitational raise?

Number of trumps held is one item in the equation. What about HCP and distributional points. Surely they also form part of the equation somewhere?

If someone can post an illustrative hand of all 3 types of raises it will be highly appreciated.

Thank you.

[aguahombre]

In the very old days, when jump raises were forcing, someone decided they should be limited and only invite game. Limit raises=invitational raises.