another alert question and an oops
#101
Posted 2012-February-29, 00:44
However, both explanations are clearly insufficient, IMO. Lebensohl is a convention that shows something. It doesn't ask. Assuming that the auction started 1NT-2♥-2NT, you should explain what it shows: "He either wants to show that he has a game force with a stopper in hearts, wants to compete at the three level in clubs or diamonds or wants to invite in spades.". (If you play it that way.) You might want to add that direct bids would have been GF or that they would deny a stopper.
Note that all this only explains about a bid that has been made (or bids that could have been made but weren't), not about bids that will be made in the future.
Rik
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
#102
Posted 2012-February-29, 02:40
Trinidad, on 2012-February-29, 00:44, said:
All bids show something unless they are forced. It is only that many players do not understand their systems well enough to understand what they show. There is no excuse for expert level players not describing what hands are contained within any given call though.
#103
Posted 2012-February-29, 05:20
Zelandakh, on 2012-February-29, 02:40, said:
Trinidad, on 2012-February-29, 00:44, said:
All bids show something unless they are forced. It is only that many players do not understand their systems well enough to understand what they show. There is no excuse for expert level players not describing what hands are contained within any given call though.
"All bids show something unless they are forced." is a truism.
There is a difference between 1♣-1♦; 1♠ showing "11-18, 5+ clubs and 4(+) spades" (Walsh style) and a 2♥ response to a Multi 2♦ opening (which basically shows that responder couldn't or didn't want to come up with an other bid).
If you ask what Lebensohl shows, it is possible to describe the hand types that the 2NT bidder might hold at the table. If you ask what the 2♥ response to a Multi 2♦ shows, you will not get a list of hand types at the table. Instead, you will get a list of hand types that he could have bid in another way with the additional warning that the 2♥ response doesn't deny holding a hand that could have been bid in another way. So, for practical purposes, I would say that 2♦-2♥ is not a bid where you can simply say what it shows, in the way you can for many other bids.
Rik
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
#104
Posted 2012-February-29, 06:31
Trinidad, on 2012-February-29, 05:20, said:
Not if you ask me, you won't. You will just get the explanation that it shows a hand that wants to play in 2♥ if I have the weak option with ♥s.
#105
Posted 2012-February-29, 09:02
WellSpyder, on 2012-February-29, 06:31, said:
I would give the same explanation, but that doesn't make it true.
To give you a quick idea what I mean: What would be the meaning of 2♦-3♥? Answer: it shows a hand that wants to play in 2♥ if I have the weak option with ♥s. (No one wants to play in 3♥ if he could play in 2♥. )
Do you really have two bids with the exact same meaning? Or might it be that the explanation that you gave is indeed not the whole truth?
This may seem like a lame joke, but it isn't. It shows that Zel's statement "Every bid shows something and expert players should be able to fully describe this" is false. This is particularly true since many expert players "mix some 2♠ and 3♥ in with their 2♥ response" and some 2♥ with their 3♥ response.
Rik
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
#107
Posted 2012-February-29, 11:26
WellSpyder, on 2012-February-29, 09:20, said:
Sure I do. But "not never raising" is not the same as "always raising". If I pass a weak two in hearts I may well have a hand that warrants a raise and if I raise to 3♥, I may well have a hand that, according to the book, should pass 2♥. The idea of preempts is to make it hard for the opponents, not to get to your best contract.
When we then move on from weak twos to the Multi, there is even more potential for confusing the opponents, now we can confuse them about the level, but also in our degree of fit for the majors.
What do you respond to a multi with:
♠x
♥KJxxxx
♦Ax
♣Kxxx
I would bid 2♥ some of the time. (Or do you really think that partner will pass?) So, the explanation should not be: "A hand that wants to play in 2♥ opposite a weak two in hearts." It should be something like: "A hand that might want to play in 2♥ opposite a weak two in hearts, but it could be a hand that might want to play in 4/6♥ opposite a weak two in hearts." And you can freely expand that with other hand types that do not want to play in 2♥, but don't want to lift the fog for the opponents.
In short, how can you tell what a bid shows when the purpose of the bid is to be as foggy as possible?
Rik
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
#108
Posted 2012-February-29, 11:27
Trinidad, on 2012-February-29, 09:02, said:
To give you a quick idea what I mean: What would be the meaning of 2♦-3♥? Answer: it shows a hand that wants to play in 2♥ if I have the weak option with ♥s. (No one wants to play in 3♥ if he could play in 2♥. )
Do you really have two bids with the exact same meaning? Or might it be that the explanation that you gave is indeed not the whole truth?
This may seem like a lame joke, but it isn't. It shows that Zel's statement "Every bid shows something and expert players should be able to fully describe this" is false. This is particularly true since many expert players "mix some 2♠ and 3♥ in with their 2♥ response" and some 2♥ with their 3♥ response.
Rik
I use Multi 2♦ myself, and in my world 3♥ doesn't exist as response to a 2♦ opening bid.
2♦ - 2NT: "Tell me what you have"
2♦ - 2♠: "Invitation to game if you have a weak heart opening, for play if you have spades"
2♦ - 2♥: "For play if you have a weak heart opening"
(Invitation to game in spades is shown with the sequence: 2♦ - 2♥ - 2♠ - 3♠)
#109
Posted 2012-February-29, 11:45
Trinidad, on 2012-February-29, 11:26, said:
♠x
♥KJxxxx
♦Ax
♣Kxxx
I would bid 2♥ some of the time. (Or do you really think that partner will pass?) So, the explanation should not be: "A hand that wants to play in 2♥ opposite a weak two in hearts."
"A hand that is prepared to play in 2♥ opposite a weak two in hearts", perhaps?
pran, on 2012-February-29, 11:27, said:
It does in my world - essentially a hand that would raise a weak 2 in ♥ to 3, and a weak 2 in ♠ to 3 or more.
#110
Posted 2012-February-29, 11:47
I would describe the first of those as "asking me to bid 3♣ so that he may further describe his hand, but I am permitted to bid something else with the right kind of hand," the second as "requires me to bid 3♣ so that he may further describe his hand", and the third as "asks me to describe my hand, with particular attention to my major suit holdings". I would not use The Bridge World's words, much as I might like to, because most people don't know what they mean.
In all three cases, there are typically partnership understandings of what kind of hands the 2NT or 2♣ bidder might hold. Those are disclosable, so should be included as part of the explanation.
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#111
Posted 2012-February-29, 17:32
blackshoe, on 2012-February-29, 11:47, said:
I would describe bids as relays when they're forced, just waiting for the other hand to pattern out; such as 2♣-2♦ where you never respond higher with a positive, or in a system I play, 1♦-1♠-2♣ (which shows ♦ or the majors or all 3), then the next hand always bids 2♦, opener responding 2NT with diamonds, his longer major with the majors or 3♣ with short clubs.
Stayman is only bid on a small set of hands, so it shows much more than a relay. I guess the relay is the other half of a puppet, but I wouldn't describe the previous bids as puppets, since they describe the hand quite a lot as well.
I guess the sequence 1N-(X)-XX, where XX forces 2C, which is passed with clubs or bid another suit to play, I'd describe XX as a puppet to 2C and 2C as a relay.
#112
Posted 2012-February-29, 17:40
It sounds like you have your own definitions of these words, which is dandy, except that when you're talking to others, they may not be on the same page, which is going to make real communication difficult.
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#113
Posted 2012-February-29, 19:30
pran, on 2012-February-29, 11:27, said:
Really? I do prefer to play against people who do not believe in taking my room away!
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Visiting IBLF from time to time
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#114
Posted 2012-February-29, 22:57
Trinidad, on 2012-February-29, 00:44, said:
However, both explanations are clearly insufficient, IMO. Lebensohl is a convention that shows something. It doesn't ask. Assuming that the auction started 1NT-2♥-2NT, you should explain what it shows: "He either wants to show that he has a game force with a stopper in hearts, wants to compete at the three level in clubs or diamonds or wants to invite in spades.". (If you play it that way.) You might want to add that direct bids would have been GF or that they would deny a stopper.
Go back and read my post #97, I do say more than what's quoted above. I prefer to start with a brief description that covers the most likely cases. Hence my terse "usually in preparation for a weak signoff, but he could show other hands with his next bid." If they want to know what other types of hands could be shown, they're welcome to ask for more information. I don't think this explanation is misleading.
#115
Posted 2012-March-01, 03:32
mjj29, on 2012-February-29, 17:32, said:
I would describe XX as "a weak one-suited hand" (by your definitions) although many will also allow weak 3-suiters (redouble) or strong 1-suiters that do not want to sit for 1NTXX or sometimes other hands. I would describe 2♣ as "any normal 1NT opening, does not show clubs" assuming that opener is allowed to break the puppet with an animal NT, or "any hand at all, (s)he had to bid that" if not.
#116
Posted 2012-March-01, 03:51
bluejak, on 2012-February-29, 19:30, said:
What is wrong with the answer: 2♠ - invitation if opener has a weak hand in hearts and for play if opener has a weak hand in spades?
(The hand given by Trinidad is IMHO typical for a 2♠ response to Multi 2♦.)
#117
Posted 2012-March-01, 17:08
pran, on 2012-March-01, 03:51, said:
(The hand given by Trinidad is IMHO typical for a 2♠ response to Multi 2♦.)
Why would you want to tell the whole table that you have hearts if you already know that your partner isn't interested in them? You are supposed to help your partner, not the opponents.
Rik
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
#118
Posted 2012-March-02, 01:25
Trinidad, on 2012-March-01, 17:08, said:
pran, on 2012-March-01, 03:51, said:
(The hand given by Trinidad is IMHO typical for a 2♠ response to Multi 2♦.)
Why would you want to tell the whole table that you have hearts if you already know that your partner isn't interested in them? You are supposed to help your partner, not the opponents.
Rik
It is illegal to tell partner without telling the whole table anything about my hand - we call that "Concealed Partnership Understanding".
How do I know that partner isn't interested in hearts?
More important: Why should I raise to 3♥ on the assumption that partner has hearts instead of using the 2♠ bid to combine such a raise with a bid of 2♠ for play in case he has spades?
And finally: Don't forget the possibility that partner can have a 20-21 NT-style hand.
#119
Posted 2012-March-02, 05:23
pran, on 2012-March-02, 01:25, said:
Please read my post again. I am ssaying that you should tell nobody about your hearts, if it can't help your side. Not the opponents and not partner. That is not a CPU. That is good bridge. The fact that you think this is a CPU only shows how hard it would be to actually explain accurately what the 2♥ response shows. This is what I argued all along: a Lebensohl 2NT shows something that can be listed, a 2♥ response to a Multi 2♦ shows fog.
pran, on 2012-March-02, 01:25, said:
We were talking about the hand where you hold:
♠x
♥KJxxxx
♦Ax
♣Kxxx
and partner opens a Multi 2♦, right? What do you think the odds are that partner has a weak two in hearts? Do you really want to play for that?
Or do you have a way to get to a low level heart contract when:
- partner has a weak two in spades
- you bid 2♠
- partner is "interested" in hearts (meaning he has three card support)?
pran, on 2012-March-02, 01:25, said:
How does that matter?
The auction will start:
2♦-2♥
2NT
and I can describe my hand just like after
2♦-2♠
2NT
The only difference will be that I will end up declaring if we end up playing in hearts.
Rik
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
#120
Posted 2012-March-02, 07:32
Trinidad, on 2012-March-02, 05:23, said:
We were talking about the hand where you hold:
♠x
♥KJxxxx
♦Ax
♣Kxxx
and partner opens a Multi 2♦, right? What do you think the odds are that partner has a weak two in hearts? Do you really want to play for that?
Or do you have a way to get to a low level heart contract when:
- partner has a weak two in spades
- you bid 2♠
- partner is "interested" in hearts (meaning he has three card support)?
[...]
Rik
C'mon. Have you never encountered 12 hearts between you and your partner? I have.
And wouldn't it help our side when you with a 2♠ bid can become declarer (rather than your partner) in the expected 2♠ contract while immediately raising the entry-level in the auction for opponents to three in case they have the spades?
(With "interested in hearts" I wasn't thinking of his possible 3 cards support to me. In my world 2♠ invites to game in hearts "in case you have a weak two in hearts". This is similar to the 3♠ bid in the sequence: 2♦ - 2♥ - 2♠ - 3♠.)