[Hanoi5]

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[Codo]

Wests bids had been fine to me- he surely did not know that there is a life after Blackwood- if he had asked for kings, he could have avoided the problem...

I am very conservative, but to bid 4 ♥ with the east hand looks too aggressive to me. The doubleton queen needs not to be better then xx.

[mikeh]

Hanoi5, on 2012-February-27, 10:45, said:

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West screwed up in several ways.

Firstly, he didn't think. East denied a stiff by not splintering, so West should immediately worry about the spade suit. His diamond length is too great to expect to discard spades...so he needs opener to control the spade suit in order to make 13 tricks.

If he gets to that point, he may realize that keycard won't help.....how on earth does he count to 13 by simply asking how many keycards opener has?

Obviously, if he is going to keycard, he ought to ask for Kings, but even then, he can't count 13 tricks....Kxx Kxxx KQJx AK is a full 19 and yet we have zero play for 13 winners.

And I don't know any way to ask for keycards and then ask for 3rd round spade control. Maybe some people have such a gadget, but I don't.

On this hand, both keycard and cuebidding would/should allow the partnership to avoid the hopeless grand. I suspect even cuebidding would have had trouble reaching a good grand were dummy's cards more suitable but I haven't taken the time to think that through

Heck, even quantitative assessment by West should have done the trick. West lacks a 5 card suit, and can expect duplication in the red suits, and has only 15 hcp opposite 18-19 semi-balanced. Yes, a magic layout would leave 13 tricks available, but surely the odds are against it?

East had a close call.....3♥ looks to be too conservative, so I'd probably make the aggressive 4♥ call....the Qx in spades is very bad, but the 5 solid diamonds look pretty good. And make it Kxx Kxxx KQJx AK, and everybody bids 4♥, the 4N response is the same and West careens off to a silly contract, so one can't say this was East's fault.

[y66]

What Codo said.

West can infer that East does not have shortness in spades because he did not splinter. But I don't know how he can get the information he needs about diamonds and spades to decide between 6H and 7H.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

mikeh, on 2012-February-27, 11:12, said:

Obviously, if he is going to keycard, he ought to ask for Kings, but even then, he can't count 13 tricks....

Even if West next asks for Kings ( showing all key cards and the trump Q ) , East's bid is 7D -- a source of tricks bid, knowing they have 5 running ♦, and the "asker" corrects ( to 7H ) . Unfortunately, East doesn't know of West's 4 card ♦ length. If West were 3 4 3 3, the 7H slam would practically be a laydown.

Also, a better RKC would be kickback ( 4S! ) when ♥ are trump.
That way the K-ask is 5S! , and under different circumstances ( no solid ♦ ) , the 5NT reply would show the ♠ K ( if he had it ) or 6C would show the ♣ K but deny the ♠ K .
And the auction would stop at 6H .
[ Using 4NT as RKC, you can't find out about the ♠ K BELOW 6H ] .

And in answer to Mike's question, there is no way ( with either RKC-ask ) to find out about the 3rd Rnd ♠-Ctrl .

[mikeh]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-February-27, 14:07, said:

Even if West next asks for Kings ( showing all key cards and the trump Q ) , East's bid is 7D -- a source of tricks bid, knowing they have 5 running ♦, and the "asker" corrects ( to 7H ) . Unfortunately, East doesn't know of West's 4 card ♦ length. If West were 3 4 3 3, the 7H slam would practically be a laydown.

Also, a better RKC would be kickback ( 4S! ) when ♥ are trump.
That way the K-ask is 5S! , and under different circumstances ( no solid ♦ ) , the 5NT reply would show the ♠ K ( if he had it ) or 6C would show the ♣ K but deny the ♠ K .
And the auction would stop at 6H .
[ Using 4NT as RKC, you can't find out about the ♠ K BELOW 6H ] .

And in answer to Mike's question, there is no way ( with either RKC-ask ) to find out about the 3rd Rnd ♠-Ctrl .

I thought about whether E should jump to 7 over 5N on the basis of the solid diamonds and concluded that he ought not to do so. He needed the KQJxx in diamonds to warrant the 4♥ call...so to then take that holding and use to to justify a 7-level call is double-counting. While it is good practice to jump when holding an undisclosed source of tricks, this really isn't, in terms of what partner expects, undisclosed.

Now, were we in an auction in which we were strong but not fully bid-out, in terms of values, and had KQJxxx, as an example, then we should jump to the 7 level.

[Phil]

4♥ does not deny a stiff. As a matter of fact the call usually contains shortness.

[JLOGIC]

Phil, on 2012-February-27, 14:23, said:

4♥ does not deny a stiff. As a matter of fact the call usually contains shortness.

huh? Is being too weak to splinter but too stong for 3H gonna be the new "too strong to jump rebid your suit but not strong enough to reverse?" I think both are silly. I mean, it's possible to not splinter with stiff K if that's what you mean but in that case I don't see how stiff K is more likely than 5422 or some super controlly 4432 19.

[gnasher]

mikeh said:

On this hand, both keycard and cuebidding would/should allow the partnership to avoid the hopeless grand. I suspect even cuebidding would have had trouble reaching a good grand were dummy's cards more suitable but I haven't taken the time to think that through

A reasonable cue-bidding auction is

    -1♦
1♥-4♥
4♠-5♣
5♦-6♣
6♥

West knows that there's a spade loser, so he's not tempted to go on.

If East's spades were Kx instead of Qx, he could bid Keycard over 4♠. This is a good example of the disadvantages of Kickback. The right time to ask for keycards is after you have established how well the hands fit, not before.

Quote

Heck, even quantitative assessment by West should have done the trick. West lacks a 5 card suit, and can expect duplication in the red suits, and has only 15 hcp opposite 18-19 semi-balanced. Yes, a magic layout would leave 13 tricks available, but surely the odds are against it?

It's not that magic to find opener with Kx Kxxx KQxxx Ax plus enough wasted quacks to make an 18-count.

And, just to prove that I read all the way to the bottom:

Quote

East had a close call.....3♥ looks to be too conservative, so I'd probably make the aggressive 4♥ call....the Qx in spades is very bad, but the 5 solid diamonds look pretty good. And make it Kxx Kxxx KQJx AK, and everybody bids 4♥, the 4N response is the same and West careens off to a silly contract, so one can't say this was East's fault.

You're saying that Kxx Kxxx KQJx AK is a better hand than Qx Kxxx KQJxx AK for game purposes? I don't think I agree with that - controls are nice, but I'd rather have the extra diamond winner.

[JLOGIC]

Kickback and normal keycard are the same as long as 5S is the king ask over

1D 1H
4H 4N
5H

Responder can bid 6C denying the SK and showing the CK. If the diamonds are all partner needs he can bid 6D over 6C. The solid diamonds and CK are not enough to jump to 7 in this auction, it's not like you can have less than the KQ of diamonds given no HAQ, no SAK... I do not think QJ KJTx KJTxx AK would jump to 4H and that is the best hand you could possibly have.

On the other hand, partner with A AQJ A, aka his exact hand, must be able to confirm all the KC since you could have K K KQ AK easily.

Jumping to 7 over 5H is just ludicrous though obviously.

[ArtK78]

Phil, on 2012-February-27, 14:23, said:

4♥ does not deny a stiff. As a matter of fact the call usually contains shortness.

I always thought that the typical jump to game was a strong balanced hand with 4 card support.

If you have a singleton you can splinter.

If your game bid is based on 4 card support and a 6 card solid suit you can rebid 4 of the solid suit.

All that is left is a balanced (or semi-balanced) hand.

[JLOGIC]

I do not understand cuebidding on this type of hand either, keycard is a very simple way to show that you have 3 aces and the queen of trumps, at which point partner should be well placed. You even get to find out if partner has the right black king or not very easily. Cuebidding auctions are very elegant but there is always a degree of judgement in place, and things can go wrong much easier since the bidding is not nearly as tightly defined as in keycard auctions. When I have a hand of all keycards, especially one where one king is much better from partner than another king, I am always thinking keycard.

[gnasher]

If partner can place the contract opposite three aces and the queen of trumps, he can bid Keycard over our 4♠ bid.

In your Keycard sequence, how will you distinguish between these three responding hands:
Kxx K109x KQJx AK
Kx K109x KQJx AQx
Kx K109x KQJxx AQ

I know that to get to the right contract via cue-bidding we're going to have to bid quite well, but we've got more chance than after Keycard.

[mikeh]

gnasher, on 2012-February-27, 14:42, said:

And, just to prove that I read all the way to the bottom:


You're saying that Kxx Kxxx KQJx AK is a better hand than Qx Kxxx KQJxx AK for game purposes? I don't think I agree with that - controls are nice, but I'd rather have the extra diamond winner.

Firstly, I always assume that you read every word I post Yes, my ego is that big!

More seriously, my comment comparing the two hands had nothing to do with either being better for game purposes. There was a post criticizing the 4♥ call as too aggressive. I would always bid 4♥ with the given hand precisely because of the diamond suit. I wanted to point out that it wasn't the 4♥ call that caused the problem and, to do so, I created a 19 point hand on which I thought, and still think, that everyone would bid 4♥! I wasn't arguing which was better.

[Phil]

JLOGIC, on 2012-February-27, 14:27, said:

huh? Is being too weak to splinter but too stong for 3H gonna be the new "too strong to jump rebid your suit but not strong enough to reverse?" I think both are silly. I mean, it's possible to not splinter with stiff K if that's what you mean but in that case I don't see how stiff K is more likely than 5422 or some super controlly 4432 19.

Well...

1x - 1y - 4y seems to be a cousin to 1x - 1N - 4x which you have said is a weak dist hand that needs to get to game.

There have been some discussions recently on here that have said the former shows a minimum distributional hand and 4z and 4x are the stronger raises.

Are you really saying you'd splinter x AJxxx x AQxxxx after 1♣ - 1♥?

[bluecalm]

Bidding 4H on both strong bal hands and weakish unbal hands is very bad system.
If you could have 4-4-3-2 19hcp and 6-4, 15hcp there is no hope whatsover for reasonable slam bidding. If 4H is weakish/shapy then hands with plenty hcp needs to go via different route.
I mean, how can you hope for reasonable auction if you don't even know if opener has 3 or 5 diamonds at 4 level ? Responder will never be able to count tricks with any accuracy without knowing about diamond length.

[Cyberyeti]

We'd have 2 different ways to avoid this:

1♦-2♦(10+ with 4 diamonds or 9+ with 5, not denying 4M)
2♥(nat)-4♣(splinter agreeing ♥, plenty of strength to spare)
4♦-4♥
4♠(KC)-4N(0/3)
5♣(QH ? can't be 0 keycards, not enough points in the pack)-6♥(yes no side K)
6N So that's 5♦, 4♥ 2♣ and a ♠

The only hand you're making the grand on is where partner has a 6th diamond which is pretty unlikely so easy not to bid it.

1♦-1♥
2N(GF unbalanced)-3♣(forced unless lots of shape)
4♦(2452, nice diamonds agrees ♥)-4♠(KC)
5♦-5N(interested in grand, nothing sensible to cue)
6♣(king)-6♥
P

Basically W can picture Qx/QJ (needs the Q for enough for the 2N bid), Kxxx, KQJxx, AK and the grand can't be better than a finesse as partner can't have K♠ or he'd show it over 6♥.

[Zelandakh]

mikeh, on 2012-February-27, 11:12, said:

And I don't know any way to ask for keycards and then ask for 3rd round spade control. Maybe some people have such a gadget, but I don't.

I agree with almost everything you wrote but not the above. As far as I know specific suit asks (SSAs) for third round control are absolutely standard in RKCB. For example, after

1♦ - 1♥
4♥ - 4♠
5♦,

5NT (or 5♠ if you use 5NT as the king ask) is a SSA for spades with responses
...6♣ = doubleton
...6♦ = queen
...6♥ = no second or third round control
...6♠ = king
...7♥ = king and queen

Some players adjust these responses and in my mind it makes no sense to use 7X for the KQ response when 6NT is idle; but that is just me.

What you cannot do, and what I suspect you meant, is ask for third round spade control after having asked for kings. Obviously this West hand is highly unsuitable for a spade SSA after the key card response regardless! Nonetheless, after
5♠ (king ask) - 6♣ (♣K but no ♠K) it should be simple for West to see that 7 has no play.

I also take Andy's point and I think anyone going the key card route is likely to reach the grand opposite his first hand unless they play the 4♥ raise to deny a 4432 hand. Is it clear that cue-bidding will pinpoint the slow spade loser here though?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Side Issue: How to make a 3rd Rnd Ctrl-Ask for the ♠ suit when ♥ are trump.

Thx Zel.... I had not thought about the use of kickback-RKC as the solution until you pointed it out.

However, my replies would be more in line with how I treat this ask.

Normally, lets say ♠ are trump:
1S - 2S
4NT - 5any
6C! ( by-passing the 5NT K-ask is 3rd Rnd Ctrl-ask for the ♣ suit ) - ??
....... 6S = 6 trump = no third round control
....... 7S = 7 trump = doubleton
.......6NT = ♣Q ( Notrump shows the asked-for feature )
....... 7C = 7-ask = ♣QJ

Sooo, when ♥ are trump :
1H - 2H
4S! ( kickback-RKC ) - 4NT/5C/5D/5H
5NT! ( by-passing the 5S K-ask is 3rd Rnd Ctrl-ask for the ♠ suit ) - ??
....... 6H = no 3rd Rnd Ctrl
....... 7H = x x doubleton in ♠
.......6NT = ♠Q
....... 6S = ♠QJ

[straube]

Phil, on 2012-February-27, 15:55, said:

Well...

1x - 1y - 4y seems to be a cousin to 1x - 1N - 4x which you have said is a weak dist hand that needs to get to game.

There have been some discussions recently on here that have said the former shows a minimum distributional hand and 4z and 4x are the stronger raises.

Are you really saying you'd splinter x AJxxx x AQxxxx after 1♣ - 1♥?

I would open that 1H. Make the hand a little better...x AJxxx x AKJxxx and if I open 1C and partner bids 1H, I can jump rebid 4C to show six good clubs and usually four hearts.

1x-1y, 4h systemically shows the 18-19 balanced with four hearts.