[HighLow21]

I'm in a terrible mood, though it's better than yesterday. My beautiful girlfriend is potentially dying of cancer, and I have the stomach flu.

Not anyone's fault.

What I'm mad about, though, is some of the treatment I've been getting here at the forums. Can anyone relate to these?

(1) Ad hominem attacks. This is attacking the person giving the argument, not attacking the argument itself. Something like "you're a jacka**" or "you're a beginner" or "you don't know what you're talking about."

(2) Calling people names. This is closely related to (1), but it's actually worse. Saying "you don't know what you're talking about" is an ad hominem attack, while saying "you're a jackass" is an ad hominem attack with namecalling rolled in.

(3) Poking holes in arguments. This is something like the following: you type a 500-word, well-reasoned argument, and get no credit for the valuable analysis in any of it, but someone points out that you said something like "partner is sacrificing" instead of "partner might be sacrificing."

(4) Incorrect interpretation of facts. For example, someone says "so-and-so believes this hand is worth a takeout double" when, actually, the original post is either ambiguous or clearly NOT saying that.

(5) Deifying of specific experts. This one annoys me the most, because it's the most pervasive, in my opinion. Does anyone here feel that, simply by the merit of something OTHER than the content of the posts, certain people are given credit and respect blindly, while others cannot win no matter how sound their arguments are? Personally, I don't care if Charles Goren himself were posting in these forums. If there was (i) a factual error, (ii) an ambiguity, or (iii) a dangerous bit of advice given, I would feel compelled to call him out on it rather than just defer to his reputation. In fact, I would feel more compelled to call Goren out on it, because I know that others know what a highly-touted expert he is. Therefore his words are going to be taken much more seriously than average, and therefore must be held to the highest possible standard.

Anyone else share my sentiments on any of these? Or to quote S.J. Simon, "perhaps I'm just suffering from a surfeit" today.

[ArtK78]

Tate:

You have my sympathy concerning your girlfriend's illness. My girlfriend lost both of her parents in 2009. Her mother died of an aggressive form of brain cancer. She had never been sick a day in her life, and she was gone within 2 months of the diagnosis. My girlfriend's father died several months later, no doubt out of loneliness.

Since then, my girlfriend has created a foundation dedicated to research into brain cancer.

Hopefully, your girlfriend will recover and all will be well.

As for today's discussions in several threads, the best advice I can give to you is to try to relax. Rather than respond to posts immediately, sit back and think about them for a while. It is clear that you have been responding to posts within a minute or two, and that is not a good idea (especially when the discussion gets heated).

[S2000magic]

You have a PM.

[hrothgar]

Very sorry to hear about your girlfriend / Hope for a full recovery...

[benlessard]

My deep sympathy too. I think its somewhat an internet phenomenon. I remember when ive started using internet the first time, I was with a friend who had BBS (pre internet stuff), Ive noticed that all people had login names rather than using real names, for me it was a shock that you could develop fairly strong relations and spend that much time with complete anonymity.

As I was getting older ive noticed that anonymity tend to give a lot more freedom for venting personals emotions/problems but also for immorals behavior.

I know without doubt that anonymity tend to bring the worse in me, so at one point ive decided to always use my real name for login/email and for everything on the web (except poker or money accounts) (When i told my friend that im using my real name as login on a porn site he looked at me like I was an alien).

In human behavior "reputation" is important and when you give a man the opportunity to do things without risking his reputation it often get ugly real quick.

Also im a super lazy writer, putting my real name on what I write forced my to re-read and be more careful about the way I write (wich is still terrible).

Some weird stuff happen too, your handle or internet persona become a ego protector or ego booster.

Imo the best way to deal with this is to always dilute every internet conversations.

[mikeh]

Let me add to the condolences....I am sure that many of us here have gone through similar experiences....I know I have. Recognizing that life stressors impact not only our postings but our perception of the postings of others is a good start to maintaining some equilibrium.

In my real life, I deal with highly stressful situations all the time...I am a trial lawyer, aand the nature of my work is that I deal in an adversarial system. While many of my adversaries are very courteous, a number are not, and many of the clients, as opposed to the lawyers, are under great pressure.

So I am occasionally tempted to rant at someone else. I have a rule....I never do it on the telephone nor by email. My rants are always in letter form. It generally takes 1-3 days to get a letter printed out, and I always put it on a windowledge in my office for a minimum of 2 days. I have never sent out such a letter....by the time I read it, I have lost the edge on my anger and have cooled down. Almost invariably, there was a more innocent interpretation of what got me worked up than the one to which I lept at the time, and, when there wasn't, no useful purpose could be served by my descending to the level of conduct of the person at whom I was so righteously pissed off.


We lose that cooling off when we post here and elsewhere.

I know that at the moment you probably can't see this, but my take is that not one person here is really calling you a jackass or an asshole....they are responding to your posts, sometimes at an emotional level, and you are doing the same.

You may think....well, he started it. But he will argue you did...when what happened is that you each took excpetion to a relatively early post from the other, perhaps reading it in a sense unintended by the author, and before you know it you have a flame war going.

I've been there.....search the stuff I used to write about Ken Rexford!

I've got over my issues with ken....I still enjoy tweaking his tail when he makes what I usually see as a silly suggestion, but my tongue is now firmly planted in my cheek when i do.....I no longer think that he is or ever was a 'troll', for example. And 'troll' was only one of the things I called him

The same is true of whereagles.....I still find most of what he writes to be not very helpful, but I have more respect for him now, and that's not him...that's me getting over myself and recognizing that other people legitimately see the world, including bridge, in ways that are foreign to me.

[CSGibson]

Tate, I am sorry about your girlfriend. While I have opinions on a few things, I would like to address one of your points specifically:

 HighLow21, on 2012-February-29, 14:54, said:

(5) Deifying of specific experts. This one annoys me the most, because it's the most pervasive, in my opinion. Does anyone here feel that, simply by the merit of something OTHER than the content of the posts, certain people are given credit and respect blindly, while others cannot win no matter how sound their arguments are? Personally, I don't care if Charles Goren himself were posting in these forums. If there was (i) a factual error, (ii) an ambiguity, or (iii) a dangerous bit of advice given, I would feel compelled to call him out on it rather than just defer to his reputation. In fact, I would feel more compelled to call Goren out on it, because I know that others know what a highly-touted expert he is. Therefore his words are going to be taken much more seriously than average, and therefore must be held to the highest possible standard.

Understand that even the following things I state with certainty are only my opinion.

There are basically two ways to get respect on this forum: Consistent quality posting, or widely respected real world results. Respect is never given blindly, and you have not been around for long enough to truly understand the track record of the various posters on this forum.

If a forum member I respect, either because of accomplishment or because of consistent quality posting, makes a bridge point I disagree with, the first thing I try to do is understand why they feel the way they do - understanding the benefit of their approach. Those posters have earned the benefit of the doubt, and the fact that I disagree probably calls into question my opinion more than anything else.

After I understand what it is they are saying, I certainly won't say that their opinion is ludicrous. I'll give my own viewpoint respectfully, mostly in the hope that the posters that I think of as better players will take note and give more detail as to why they feel like their action is better. I will then try to take their explanation and decide how that impacts my views.

If, on the other hand, you are a poster who has been around less than two months and has no known track record of success, I will be far less likely to think deeply when I disagree - I have no reason to believe that your bridge opinion is any better than mine or anyone else's. And when such a person "calls out" people who have earned my respect through long time posting and/or real world accomplishments...I will obviously give more weight to the opinion of the person with the proven track record.

It doesn't matter if you think your own posts are full of quality analysis or well reasoned arguments when it comes to getting respect - it only matters what your audience thinks. In fact, letting people know how much you think of yourself without any real world results to back up that opinion is one quick way to make sure you never get the respect you obviously feel that you deserve.

[mgoetze]

Hi Tate,

very sorry to hear about the girlfriend. Nevertheless, I shall assume that you mainly wanted honest feedback on the much larger part of your post, so here it comes:

To begin with a short summary: no, I can't relate.

I hardly ever read the SAYC+2/1 forum or the IBH forum, and the A/E forum only very sporadically, so I've probably missed most of what's going on here. I just read the following thread which was seemingly a large part of it: http://www.bridgebas...ee-bid-options/

Let's start by analysing one particular sentence which seems to have escalated the whole matter a lot:

 wyman, on 2012-February-29, 10:24, said:

You're free to disagree with him, but picking an action he takes and just calling it ludicrous, well, it makes you look like a jackass.

Now it seems you have been treating this statement as functionally equivalent to the statement "HighLow21 is a jackass". It's not. Personally, at this point I would not feel at all comfortable endorsing the statement "HighLow21 is a jackass". I definitely 100% agree with the statement "HighLow21 is making himself look like a jackass".

Later in the thread you went on to admit that you don't find Justin's posts helpful, specifically

 HighLow21, on 2012-February-29, 13:51, said:

Point 3: This is exactly what I meant earlier by saying that I find his posts unhelpful. I find them sloppy, disorganized, uninsightful, and not fully (if at all) explained. I guess I just got to the point where I'm tired of it.

Now, given the high volume of posts that Justin makes here, it is inevitable that a few of them will be sloppy. I think you will find that the vast majority of forum posters much prefer this to Justin posting less.

Nevertheless, I find his posts well-organized, highly insightful, and very well-explained, especially insofar as Justin pretty much always responds to polite requests to explain specific parts of his thinking process in more detail. (So while he may occasionally post something he finds obvious without any explanation, if it's not at all obvious to me and I can't figure it out, I will get that explanation.)

There are literally hundreds of people on this forum who are better at bridge than I am, and I am not aware of a single one of them thinking Justin's posts are not helpful.

So, let's analyse what's going wrong here. I will be very blunt and say that, in my humble opinion, it comes down to this: (1) you are deluded as to your level of bridge-playing competence and (2) you are deluded as to the stringency of your arguments.

Ad (1): I have from time to time checked with whom you were playing on BBO. I have not once observed you playing with anyone of whom I did not suspect that they are utterly incompetent at bridge. Nevertheless, you continually claim to be an excellent player. Well, let me tell you this: the fact that you have good results against these people cannot possibly demonstrate anything beyond the fact that you are at least somewhere on the bottom end of intermediate. If you want to find out whether you are any good at this game, you will have to go and play with the big boys. Meanwhile, on the forum, you often disagree vehemently with people who are demonstrably excellent at this game. Justin is just the most extreme example of this. By Occam's Razor, I must provisionally conclude that you are, in fact, not excellent at this game.

Ad (2): Allow me one more quote from the aforementioned thread

 HighLow21, on 2012-February-29, 12:55, said:

And there's one thing I can say with absolute certainty here: my opinions expressed here are extremely valid and easy to back up. I have done a very good job of doing so here,

I don't even know where to start on this. You claim that you have done a very good job of backing up your claims, yet strangely enough, noone agrees with you? Why do you think this is? Again, Occam's Razor suggests that it is because you have not, if fact, done a good job of backing your claims up. And come on, "absolute certainty"? "Extremely valid"? This is literally begging people to put you on their ignore list rather than try to reason with you. I think it certainly justifies my qualification of "delusional".


So, what you need to do is come back down to Earth, realise that you are actually not very good at bridge, and start listening to those who are. Then you may actually become good at bridge in time. Sorry for putting it so bluntly, but someone had to do it and MikeH is much too polite to do so. I nevertheless suggest you read all his posts in this thread and the other one again, this time with an open mind.

[dicklont]

http://xkcd.com/386/

[Statto]

I sympathize, and also empathize. I have also made some bad posts when I've been in an odd mood.

Compared with other public forums (e.g. YouTube which is plagued by racist trolls), this one is by far the best. Posters generally seek to educate or be educated, or most probably both. This is the best place to take your bridge to the next level when the local club doesn't have too many experts, or you end up being a so-called expert.

I've generally found your posts to be helpful, mostly reinforcing what I already "knew", just as much as reading a book aimed at a large audience would, though I won't always agree with you, and neither will I always agree with published authors (but the point is to make you think). The hands posted here tend to be the marginal decisions where several actions could be "best". Discussion as to why is usually interesting and informative ... much more useful than any book with just one or two points of view (particularly if they avoid discussing the marginal hands)

[manudude03]

I'm also sorry to hear about your girlfriend, hope she recovers. Don't worry about brunting your frustrations at me, it can happen to anyone, I didn't take it too personally. You will probably find on the forums is that there isn't anyone (that I know off) who hasn't butted heads with another member at some point, it just makes us grow a little As one of my partners say, the best way to improve your game is to get in an argument about it.

[JLOGIC]

Wow again... Sorry about your girlfriend. I would not have reacted so strongly in a recent thread if I had seen this.

I think I have had more than one emotional/mental breakdown on the forum, one was really bad and not too long ago, I can totally relate to losing it on here when something horrible happens in real life (though nothing has happened so horrible to me as what happened to you).

Good luck with everything and no hard feelings on my end. We do not have to like each others posting but I feel awful when another human being has to go through something so sad.

[HighLow21]

 mikeh, on 2012-February-29, 16:21, said:

<snip>

I know that at the moment you probably can't see this, but my take is that not one person here is really calling you a jackass or an asshole....they are responding to your posts, sometimes at an emotional level, and you are doing the same.

<snip>

Mike, thank you for your sincere response. Rest assured that I can point you directly to where I was called "stupid", "a jackass", and "a clown"; I was also "lol'ed" at in a derisive way. I will do so if you want me to.

It's bad enough to attack and insult me for expressing an opinion. Namecalling is completely uncalled for, and I didn't go overboard today until I was attacked as described earlier. And maybe I should have waited to respond; I'm just a big believer in not giving into this type of behavior.

[HighLow21]

 JLOGIC, on 2012-February-29, 17:55, said:

Wow again... Sorry about your girlfriend. I would not have reacted so strongly in a recent thread if I had seen this.

I think I have had more than one emotional/mental breakdown on the forum, one was really bad and not too long ago, I can totally relate to losing it on here when something horrible happens in real life (though nothing has happened so horrible to me as what happened to you).

Good luck with everything and no hard feelings on my end. We do not have to like each others posting but I feel awful when another human being has to go through something so sad.

Thank you, Justin!

[HighLow21]

 manudude03, on 2012-February-29, 17:41, said:

I'm also sorry to hear about your girlfriend, hope she recovers. Don't worry about brunting your frustrations at me, it can happen to anyone, I didn't take it too personally. You will probably find on the forums is that there isn't anyone (that I know off) who hasn't butted heads with another member at some point, it just makes us grow a little As one of my partners say, the best way to improve your game is to get in an argument about it.

Ha! I like that. And it makes total sense.

[the hog]

I am also sorry for your news.
However :"P.S. The idea of overcalling 1♠ vulnerable on that hand with that suit with that heart holding in direct seat is ludicrous." It is this comment that is ludicrous, not the overcall.

[HighLow21]

 S2000magic, on 2012-February-29, 15:18, said:

You have a PM.

When I read this originally it registered as "You have PMS" and I was like "WHY YOU LITTLE..." HA!

[HighLow21]

 CSGibson, on 2012-February-29, 16:39, said:

Tate, I am sorry about your girlfriend. While I have opinions on a few things, I would like to address one of your points specifically:

<snip>

Thanks Chris, as always a very well reasoned and thought out response by you. Again, I have no issue with people attacking my arguments when they have the facts right. Today, what happened is (1) my arguments were attacked right without the facts, and worse, (2) I was attacked personally for expressing my views.

Yes, I sometimes state things strongly, but the behavior of some people today was completely sarcastic, obnoxious, personally offensive, and unacceptable. There have been a few people who have picked up on that fact, which makes me happy.

In terms of the issue of not getting respect, I simply wish that people approve/disapprove of my analyses on their own merits, and that's not what happened today.

[wyman]

You post like this:

 HighLow21, on 2012-January-31, 20:25, said:

I think wank is probably an appropriate name. Anyone who plays takeout doubles at the 5-level needs to find a new game.

 HighLow21, on 2012-January-31, 21:21, said:

"Everyone of a decent standard..." Are you saying I don't have a decent standard? Ha.

 HighLow21, on 2012-February-01, 03:31, said:

I may not have the best bidding system in the world or a litany of championships under my belt, but I am excellent at this game

 HighLow21, on 2012-February-29, 11:36, said:

I don't particularly care whether good players are overcalling on it.

 HighLow21, on 2012-February-29, 11:36, said:

You can disagree with me and I will still go on thinking that, under the conditions given in this prompt, overcalling in spades is LUDICROUS.

 HighLow21, on 2012-February-29, 11:36, said:

Besides, Justin even said he would not overcall with it, if I'm reading his lazy explanations correctly.

 HighLow21, on 2012-February-29, 13:01, said:

for the love of God, talking about how wonderful these pithy, vapid one-liners from 'the anointed one' are. They are not insightful to me in the least

And then you get all indignant about ad hominem attacks (need I point out that you disagreed with Wank by saying "wank is probably an appropriate name"?) and about how it's not fair these people picking on you and not reading your arguments.

And then you post a sob thread (in general bridge discussion -- wtf?) to garner sympathy? Pretty sick dude.

I'm sorry to hear about your girlfriend; no one should have to go through that. But that doesn't change the fact that you are an absolutely terrible poster. I love how Justin's comments can be "dangerous as fire," but you are free to authoritatively claim that your decision is the only acceptable one.

It's just unreal how self-righteous you are. But you're right, I'm the obnoxious, offensive, and unacceptable one.

[bluecalm]

HighLow21, take a break mate
I am often posting when on lift-tilt and after recovering from it I can see how ridiculous those posts look, especially when I am in aggro mode and looking to insult anybody who might get something wrong
People forget fast, just don't give them even more reasons to remember, because if you overdo it they will oblige...

Oh, and btw, you are dead wrong about opening this 12hcp in 1st position. My offer is to stop posting till you come to terms with that