[HighLow21]

 MrAce, on 2012-March-25, 13:34, said:

- You go down while there is a legit play, if you cash only 1 round ♦, when RHO has 4 of them instead of LHO.

Wait, really? Are you going to play RHO for 11 or 12 pointed suit cards?

[MrAce]

 HighLow21, on 2012-March-25, 13:38, said:

Wait, really? Are you going to play RHO for 11 or 12 pointed suit cards?

He made a heavy preempt in ♠, and his pd didnt follow 2nd ♦, what do you think RHO has unless his pd revoked ? And what other chances do you have in order to make your contract except than endplaying RHO ?

If preemptor has 4♦, there is no way you can get rid of ♦ loser, but you can get rid of ♣ loser.

Unless of course you show me where cashing 2nd ♦ loses, i don't even understand why some of you insisted on cashing only 1♦. Am i missing something ?

[kayin801]

 MrAce, on 2012-March-25, 11:29, said:

Yes, Kayin said there is a % 100 line after seeing 4-1 ♦, i am still trying to find one but i cant. I assume he meant "if LHO has 4♦"

Yeah sorry I meant when LHO had 4, obviously RHO can have 4, though if he does, you're still in decent shape, especially if RHO followed to a trump since odds are they have only 1 club. Now you can play your second spade first, guarding against a 7-2 break with fluffy's QJ or Q10 tight, and still come home when LHO has to win the 2nd club and can only return the suit.

I'm not sure I have a line to make the contract when the preemptor has K10xxxxx, -, J1098, Kx

[MrAce]

 kayin801, on 2012-March-25, 13:48, said:

Yeah sorry I meant when LHO had 4, obviously RHO can have 4, though if he does, you're still in decent shape, especially if RHO followed to a trump since odds are they have only 1 club. Now you can play your second spade first, guarding against a 7-2 break with fluffy's QJ or Q10 tight, and still come home when LHO has to win the 2nd club and can only return the suit.

I'm not sure I have a line to make the contract when the preemptor has K10xxxxx, -, J1098, Kx

When preemptor has 4♦, it doesnt matter which way you play, as long as he has only 1♣.

I would play ♣A and ♠, if LHO takes this he can cash a ♣ and plays ruff n sluff. If RHO takes this he can exit with ♦ but i give it right back to him with 4th♦ and plays ruff and sluff. No way to make as you said when preemptor has 4♦+2♣ regardless of what he has in ♠

[HighLow21]

 MrAce, on 2012-March-25, 13:47, said:

He made a heavy preempt in ♠, and his pd didnt follow 2nd ♦, what do you think RHO has unless his pd revoked ? And what other chances do you have in order to make your contract except than endplaying RHO ?

If preemptor has 4♦, there is no way you can get rid of ♦ loser, but you can get rid of ♣ loser.

Unless of course you show me where cashing 2nd ♦ loses, i don't even understand why some of you insisted on cashing only 1♦. Am i missing something ?

OK we're saying the same thing actually. (Well, almost.) Only cashing 1 diamond allows for the possibility of a misdefense in addition to legitimate plays. In my mind, a misdefense is far more likely than 4-1 in the minors AND specifically KJT♠ with RHO.

That said, some precise definition of "heavy preempt" is in order. I assume it means 3♠ or 4♠, and 7 vs. 8 spades with RHO makes a huge difference.

Also, double dummy, there is a way to make 5♥ with the hand I described above while combining other chances. It is to cash one high diamond, exit with a SPADE, win the diamond, cash A♣, and exit with 4th diamond.

[HighLow21]

 Free, on 2012-March-24, 12:50, said:

Actually, that's irrelevant.

How is it ever irrelevant to know how many trumps a defender started with when attempting to count a hand and deciding among elimination and throw-in plays?

[Free]

 HighLow21, on 2012-March-25, 15:17, said:

How is it ever irrelevant to know how many trumps a defender started with when attempting to count a hand and deciding among elimination and throw-in plays?

Because you need to endplay RHO in ♠ when he's out of ♦s. If ♦ split 3-2 it doesn't matter, if they split 4-1 or 5-0 you need LHO to have the long ♦s. You can count as much as you want, but that won't change a thing.

[HighLow21]

 Free, on 2012-March-28, 13:47, said:

Because you need to endplay RHO in ♠ when he's out of ♦s. If ♦ split 3-2 it doesn't matter, if they split 4-1 or 5-0 you need LHO to have the long ♦s. You can count as much as you want, but that won't change a thing.

Not if the trumps suggest that RHO might have the long diamonds and a singleton in clubs and hearts (see above discussion with MrAce).

[phil_20686]

 HighLow21, on 2012-March-25, 13:34, said:

Easy. Draw trumps, cash 1 round of diamonds ONLY (hoping for a 3-2 split, if so the contract is simple, but we shouldn't cash 2 rounds yet). Next cash A♣ and exit with a low club.

If RHO wins and he returns a diamond, you are golden unless he started with 4 of them. Very unlikely. So assume LHO wins and returns a diamond.

Now you exit with a spade. If RHO started with 1 diamond and wins the 2nd spade he is endplayed.

Assuming the defenders are weak, you might want to cash 4 rounds of trumps before all this. This allows an ill-advised discard of a diamond with a holder of 4, or a spade by LHO.

Gives up an easy over if rho has singleton club.

Draw trumps cashing two diamonds seems obvious start. If rho has 4 diamonds have to hope he has a singleton club, say 7411, play spade now, win the return cash diamond ace and club ace and throw in with diamond.

Kayins line is 100% if rho has 8 spades, as now he must have singleton club if he has 4 diamonds. His line is also 100% if rho has 7 spades and at least one heart.