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How do you respond with a balanced 19 count? After opener's 1C

#1 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2012-March-29, 18:18

Playing 2/1 GF, and a 15-17 NT you pick up the following mittful 3rd in at green:

S: AQ
H: J84
D: KQT3
C: AKT6

While your contemplating how to open this collection when it gets around to you partner surprises you by opening 1C as dealer.

What the heck is the standard response here? Temporise with 1D? A strong jump shift?

I had:

Spoiler

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#2 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-March-29, 18:31

1 is fine, your next bid is the difficult bid.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

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#3 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2012-March-29, 18:38

So what would the next bid be then? Assume partner comes back with 1NT and opens balanced 11 counts.
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#4 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-March-29, 18:47

Do you mean partner opens balanced 11 counts?

Lacking any fancy tools I would try 4N - Quantitative, asking partner to bid 6N if she has a maximum for her opening.
~33 hcp is needed for a small slam so although your hand is fabulous, slam is marginal.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

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#5 User is offline   BunnyGo 

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Posted 2012-March-29, 18:48

I think 1 and 2 if it were inverted are both reasonable starts. I think I prefer 2 because you aren't likely to play in diamonds as you have no preference between the minors, and your partner opened 1. It also gets the forcing nature of your hand out.

If you bid 1 and it comes back 1NT to you, then it depends what GF options you have. Your partner must have a 4 card club suit on this auction, so 6 or 7 is definitely a possibility (so you don't want to just bid 4NT invitational). Make a forcing bid, and if no good one exists bid 2...it may discourage an unwanted heart lead while also being forcing.
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#6 User is offline   BunnyGo 

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Posted 2012-March-29, 18:53

P.S. I don't understand why your partner doesn't rebid hearts. Do you have the agreement that balanced minimum hands bypass a 4 card major for the 2nd bid?
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#7 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-March-29, 19:10

Playing natural systems in the traditional way, balanced responding hands which are at least game-forcing opposite a 1m opening bid fall into pretty much three strata:

13-15 (16?)......respond 2NT, showing the hand is balanced and forcing.
16-17 (ish)......respond 3NT, showing a balanced hand in that range.
18-19............respond with your balanced forcing 2NT. With the given opening bid, your partner will simply bid 3NT ---but, you will now bid 4NT. This is a prepared auction to show your size and strength, not asking for Aces.

This time, partner will look at his nice 14 and accept the slam invitation by bidding 6NT.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#8 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2012-March-29, 19:17

View PostBunnyGo, on 2012-March-29, 18:53, said:

P.S. I don't understand why your partner doesn't rebid hearts. Do you have the agreement that balanced minimum hands bypass a 4 card major for the 2nd bid?


Yeah we actually play transfer walsh but that's so far away from the point I didn't want to bring it up.

Quote

13-15 (16?)......respond 2NT, showing the hand is balanced and forcing.
16-17 (ish)......respond 3NT, showing a balanced hand in that range.
18-19............respond with your balanced forcing 2NT. With the given opening bid, your partner will simply bid 3NT ---but, you will now bid 4NT. This is a prepared auction to show your size and strength, not asking for Aces.


Okay this is interesting, I was taught 2NT is an invite and 3NT is the 13-15 bal.
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#9 User is offline   nigel_k 

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Posted 2012-March-29, 19:17

I would jump shift in diamonds and then support clubs (assuming your jump shift is strong). If the jump shift is not strong, then respond 1 and make a forcing club raise next time, however you do that depending on your methods and opener's rebid.

Something like 1-1-1NT-4NT-6NT is ok, but 6 will often play better than 6NT (as it does here).
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#10 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-March-29, 19:19

Is this the N/B forum? :) I'm way off track.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#11 User is offline   Bbradley62 

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Posted 2012-March-29, 19:21

View Postaguahombre, on 2012-March-29, 19:10, said:

Playing natural systems in the traditional way, balanced responding hands which are at least game-forcing opposite a 1m opening bid fall into pretty much three strata:

13-15 (16?)......respond 2NT, showing the hand is balanced and forcing.
16-17 (ish)......respond 3NT, showing a balanced hand in that range.
18-19............respond with your balanced forcing 2NT. With the given opening bid, your partner will simply bid 3NT ---but, you will now bid 4NT. This is a prepared auction to show your size and strength, not asking for Aces.

This time, partner will look at his nice 14 and accept the slam invitation by bidding 6NT.

Except that many people playing natural systems in the traditional way, including those playing "BBO Advanced (2/1=GF)", play that 2N shows 11-12 and 3N shows 13-15 over partner's 1m opener.
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#12 User is offline   Bbradley62 

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Posted 2012-March-29, 19:25

View Postjillybean, on 2012-March-29, 19:19, said:

Is this the N/B forum? :) I'm way off track.

Actually I think that "OMG, what do I do with a balanced 19HCP?" is a perfectly reasonable N/B question, and your first two responses are completely on track.
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#13 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-March-29, 19:37

View PostBbradley62, on 2012-March-29, 19:21, said:

Except that many people playing natural systems in the traditional way, including those playing "BBO Advanced (2/1=GF)", play that 2N shows 11-12 and 3N shows 13-15 over partner's 1m opener.

I am sure many people do that. But, not if they are playing the Yellow Card often used by N/B players. SAYC (Yellow Card) is a preset system for players to use when they don't choose to make up a system of their own. It is very specific about what most opening bids and responses show.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#14 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2012-March-29, 20:00

1C - 2C! GF... if you play inverted minors . ( I should have 5 cards , but after all, I don't have a 4 card major, and that information is also contained in my bid -- besides the game force ).

1C - 2C!
2NT ( 12-14 ) - 4NT ( Quantitative )
6NT
Don Stenmark
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"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
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#15 User is offline   S2000magic 

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Posted 2012-March-29, 20:06

I would make a (strong) jump shift in diamonds, then rebid in notrump (if partner bids hearts) or clubs (if not).
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#16 User is offline   Bbradley62 

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Posted 2012-March-29, 20:31

View Postaguahombre, on 2012-March-29, 19:37, said:

I am sure many people do that. But, not if they are playing the Yellow Card often used by N/B players. SAYC (Yellow Card) is a preset system for players to use when they don't choose to make up a system of their own. It is very specific about what most opening bids and responses show.

While everything you've said here is true, OP specifically stated that he's playing 2/1, so your post here is also completely irrelevant.
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#17 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2012-March-29, 20:45

I think a strong Jump shift in Ds is terrible. Partner should consider that Ax of Ds will give a play for 6 tricks, not 3 as in the actual case.
I would simply bid 1D and over 1NT follow up with 4NT quantitative.
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#18 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-March-29, 21:14

View PostBbradley62, on 2012-March-29, 20:31, said:

While everything you've said here is true, OP specifically stated that he's playing 2/1, so your post here is also completely irrelevant.

It is just a coincidence that our agreements accidentally are the same in our version of 2/1. Auctions which start with 1C are actually irrelevant to 2/1, since they don't start with a 2/1 sequence (defined as two of a lower suit over one of a higher suit). I should have pointed out that 2NT in response to 1m has been changed in some people's style to be less than game force, and they therefore cannot use what I suggested.
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#19 User is offline   Charlie Yu 

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Posted 2012-March-29, 22:52

1 and 2 are both fine, all I want to know is partner's HCP range, he will tell me with his next bid.
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#20 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2012-March-30, 01:01

Hi,

1D.

Simple rule: If opener opens in a suit, he promises to bid again, if given the chance
and if responder did not limit his hand.
The rule is not complete, repsonder can also make a bid that is limited but commits
the partnership to game, but than the auction cannot die below game level.

Responder limits his hand by bidding 1NT and 2NT, suit bid are unlimited.

Hence 1D cannot be passed.

The advantage of 1D is, that you give opner maximal room to describe his hand, if
you had 4 spades, but no 4 card diamond / heart suit, bidding spades robs opener the
opportunity to bid 1D / 1H, and this can mean, that opener cannot communicate everything.

There are times, when you say, that this is loss of opportunity for opener is ok, e.g.
it is quite common to bid 1S over a 1 C opening, if you have 4 diamonds and 4 spades,
but with the given hand give opener maximal room.

What you would like to hear is, if opener limits his hand to a min opener.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: I believe N/B would be better served, if they forget (even better, never heard about)
the existence of suit jump shift responses after a 1 level suit opening - and I am a fan of
strong jump shifts.
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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