[Hanoi5]

Teams, white vs red:

♠Axx
♥Axx
♦x
♣AKQxxx

Your RHO deals and opens 1♣, what's your plan?

[aguahombre]

pass

[CSGibson]

1N. If partner transfers, superaccept.

[nigel_k]

Pass. If the hand is going to be played in 1NT, I would like it to be doubled with me on opening lead.

[akhare]

1N and run to 2♣ if it's doubled and pard doesn't transfer.

[rmnka447]

Pass for now.

Bid 2 ♣ or 3 ♣ next round if they find a fit other than ♣s.

I'll sit for 1 NT passed back to me or for a reopening Dbl by partner.

[gszes]

hand is just plain way too good to bid 1n or pass (scary)


I start with x it will never be passed out.

1d to 2n
2d/3d to 3n

1h/1s - 2c looking for more info
2h/2s - 3c looking for more info


1N/2N to 3n

If the bidding develops and it looks like p makes a bid
that promises 5 of a major I will bid 4 of the major.

If p jumps to game in a major I will key card looking for slam

If p bids 4/5d i will wish i had passed or bid 1n:(((((((((((((((((((((((

[the hog]

No overcall for me. I pass.

[Statto]

1NT

[JLOGIC]

And to think I thought this one would be unanimous with hombre getting like 10 rep for his first post lol. Bidding is really bad, I would pass at all vuls but you are w/r! The way to show a strong hand with clubs is to start with pass anyways.

[CSGibson]

 JLOGIC, on 2012-June-11, 17:36, said:

And to think I thought this one would be unanimous with hombre getting like 10 rep for his first post lol. Bidding is really bad, I would pass at all vuls but you are w/r! The way to show a strong hand with clubs is to start with pass anyways.

For the first time, I disagree very strongly with something bridge-related you've posted (which probably shows that I'm wrong, fwiw, but I'll post the rest on the assumption that I'm not). You say that the way to show a strong hand with clubs is to start with a pass, but there's no way that partner will take you for this strong of a hand if you do so. You'll never be able to catch up without strong risk later in the auction.

I understand making penalty passes, but really, what are you hoping to accomplish? They aren't playing clubs here, its not the same situation where they have made a 2 level overcall.

To my mind, there are exactly 2 ways to start this auction, a conservative 1N, or X and bidding 1N (which I consider the normal action). Because there is less of a likelihood that clubs run after a 1♣ opening, I chose to overcall a wet noodle 1N (which also facilitates playing in a 5-3 major fit, of course).

[Phil]

 CSGibson, on 2012-June-12, 11:20, said:

For the first time, I disagree very strongly with something bridge-related you've posted (which probably shows that I'm wrong, fwiw, but I'll post the rest on the assumption that I'm not). You say that the way to show a strong hand with clubs is to start with a pass, but there's no way that partner will take you for this strong of a hand if you do so. You'll never be able to catch up without strong risk later in the auction.

I understand making penalty passes, but really, what are you hoping to accomplish? They aren't playing clubs here, its not the same situation where they have made a 2 level overcall.

To my mind, there are exactly 2 ways to start this auction, a conservative 1N, or X and bidding 1N (which I consider the normal action). Because there is less of a likelihood that clubs run after a 1♣ opening, I chose to overcall a wet noodle 1N (which also facilitates playing in a 5-3 major fit, of course).

You might be able to make a jump in clubs over RHO's rebid which should show a good hand with clubs vs just a competitive hand in clubs.

So there could be a way to show a hand 'this good'.

By the way, this hand is way too good for a 1N overcall.

[Hanoi5]

I think the reason to pass (I'm not sure I would have followed that road myself) is:

♠Axx
♥Axx
♦AKQxxx
♣X

(1♦)-???

We're in the same predicament, sort of. The difference is that diamonds are more likely to be a suit and 2♦ is not natural in most systems but I guess the essence is the same.

[JLOGIC]

 CSGibson, on 2012-June-12, 11:20, said:

For the first time, I disagree very strongly with something bridge-related you've posted (which probably shows that I'm wrong, fwiw, but I'll post the rest on the assumption that I'm not).

ARE YOU SAYING YOU DISAGREE WITH MY NON BRIDGE STUFF?!?!?!

Just kidding.

Quote

You say that the way to show a strong hand with clubs is to start with a pass, but there's no way that partner will take you for this strong of a hand if you do so. You'll never be able to catch up without strong risk later in the auction.

It depends on the auction. As Phil said if it comes back to me at 1M (eg 1C p 1D p 1M) I can bid 3C which would show my hand pretty well imo (in fact, maybe it's an overbid since as you pointed out clubs often won't be splitting...and if they play walsh they definitely arent!).

I think you are missing the point that it will often come back to me at 1N, I would expect that to happen most of the time even since RHO probably has a 1N rebid. White against red imo you can just take your chances trying to defend 1N since if you double they might often find the run, and you are unlikely to have a game and if you do you will probably beat them a lot vulnerable anyways, but you might have them crushed if they're on a misfit so you could double and then bid 3C also which would be a pretty goo way to describe your hand. Of course it's possible that if you don't double 1N they will run to 2x anyways and then you will really have not shown your hand, it is up to you though.

If it goes 1C p 1D p 2D you can X then over 2M bid 3C, I guess you might get preempted with a 3D bid, but it seems like the only time you don't get to show your hand is 1C p 1M p 2M. Now you will bid 3C which will show a pretty good hand (since you didn't bid 3C over 1C) but it will still not show a hand this powerful.

Anyways, my point is simply that the way to show a strong hand with RHOs suit is to start with pass, and then bid strongly later. That is what I meant with:

Quote

The way to show a strong hand with clubs is to start with pass anyways.

Passing and bidding their suit shows too much to overcall 3 of their suit (assuming it's a minor), so passing and bidding stronger than that would definitely show a powerful hand on par with doubling and bidding, this is especially true since your suit must be pretty good since bidding their suit is always dangerous.

You are not really arguing against that point, you're just saying that the right way to bid this hand is to show some NT hand. To me when I see this hand, I see a strong hand with clubs. Showing NT will definitely facilitate finding a 4M game sometimes, fair point. But if partner is not strong enough to overcall 1M or 2M after 1C p 1D w/r then you are unlikely to find a game after bidding 1N anyways even if you can make it. You are likely to need a good suit from partner. I guess 1C p 1S might cause you to lose 4H.

I could see doubling and bidding NT and I would do that at other vulnerabilities but here I am hoping to defend 1N white against red which I think is a reasonable chance, and I am not as concerned about LHO psyching us out of game with a response, and I am not as concerned about the times that I do miss a game as it's white.

I think you are also way underestimating the chances that we defend 1C also, most people will not respond super light red/white ime, and given how many points we have there is a reasonable chance LHO will have <6 points and pass, and then partner will also not have much and pass. Defending 1C is a happy thought for me at these colors. And if LHO has enough to respond, I'm not sure why you're optimistic about your chances of bidding and making a game, even if one is makeable it will be hard to find when your partner has a bad hand. Doubling and bidding NT might get you there but it is a gamble on the clubs coming in probably.

Obviously if LHO passes and partner balances we will find our game. It just seems like most of the time you have a game its going to start 1C p p and when you dont it will often be 1C p p p. If LHO responds and partner passes, I would guess we usually don't have a game, and theres a reasonable chance of 1C p 1x p 1N AP. If that plan fails, maybe we will have underbid our hand in some auctions (notably 1C p 1M p 2M), but even then I'll be in 3C with RHO having opened clubs and LHO having responded to the bidding r/w, I'm just not so sure that I am missing a game often enough to worry about it.

Finally, if I am going to play a partscore, I want it to be in clubs not NT. And there is the obvious chance that partner has long diamonds and transfers me to diamonds or something having bid NT which would not be good.

I really think if youre going to decide to take an optimistic stance of your game chances you have to double and bid NT. F it, I have 8 tricks I hope. I have 3-3 in the majors maybe we can get to 4M. But bidding 1N just doesn't seem like it will do much, it won't get you to the run-good games (clubs come in or whatever when you have few HCP), it will probably only get you to games that you would have missed if LHO is going to semi-psyche his response, and it won't allow you to defend 1C or 1N which are reasonably likely outcomes with pass imo and go plus in the hundreds. It also won't allow you to play club partials, if clubs come in NT should be fine but if it doesn't it might be very bad.

But like I said at this vul I'm happy to pass and go from there.

[Cthulhu D]

 JLOGIC, on 2012-June-12, 13:52, said:

Passing and bidding their suit shows too much to overcall 3 of their suit (assuming it's a minor), so passing and bidding stronger than that would definitely show a powerful hand on par with doubling and bidding, this is especially true since your suit must be pretty good since bidding their suit is always dangerous.

Wait... you've just changed my bridge world. Do most people play (1C)-3C as natural?

[aguahombre]

 Cthulhu D, on 2012-June-12, 20:52, said:

Wait... you've just changed my bridge world. Do most people play (1C)-3C as natural?

I think most play that "Reverse Treadwell" asking for a club stop with a long suit to run.

[the hog]

 aguahombre, on 2012-June-12, 21:20, said:

I think most play that "Reverse Treadwell" asking for a club stop with a long suit to run.

Doesn't it show a C stop and ask if pd has a solid 7 card suit?

[aguahombre]

 the hog, on 2012-June-12, 21:29, said:

Doesn't it show a C stop and ask if pd has a solid 7 card suit?

No, that is straight Treadwell, according to Zeke Jabour

[Cthulhu D]

 aguahombre, on 2012-June-12, 21:20, said:

I think most play that "Reverse Treadwell" asking for a club stop with a long suit to run.

A long minor I thought, but yeah okay thats what I thought was standard. Now I just don't understand the quoted post.

[JLOGIC]

 Cthulhu D, on 2012-June-12, 23:56, said:

A long minor I thought, but yeah okay thats what I thought was standard. Now I just don't understand the quoted post.

I do not know of any good player who plays 1m 3m as stopper ask though I'm sure they exist. I would easily assume natural undiscussed (eg, playing with someone from a completely different continent like ish I would be 99 % sure he would play it that way and interpret it that way though it is undiscussed).