[dwar0123]

 luke warm, on 2012-August-11, 17:31, said:

people who believe obama and his people have to be complete morons

 luke warm, on 2012-August-11, 17:31, said:

do you disagree that anyone who believes romney caused someone's death is a moron?

I dunno, I almost feel that anyone interjecting statements like anyone who believes Romney killed a person is a moron into a political debate is partaking in the same type of hyperbolic bullshit that caused that 'belief' to begin with.

You are unjustly tainting all liberals as morons just in the same way as that super pac unjustly tainted Romney as having killed her.

The ad didn't say he killed her, just connected it with Romney; just like no liberal I know has said they believe he actually did kill her, in spite of your statement.

It is dirty dirty politics, both sides are doing it. Unjustly connecting negative ideas with their opponents, exactly like you are trying to connect liberals with morons by making it seem like anyone really believes this.

And really, as Obama's people never actually said he caused her death, its a rather bullshit move to go from saying believing Obama's people makes you a moron to believing Romney caused her death makes you a moron, as if they were the same thing.

[PassedOut]

 luke warm, on 2012-August-11, 17:31, said:

do you disagree that anyone who believes romney caused someone's death is a moron?

Newt Gingrich started that line of attack against Romney during the primaries with a mini-documentary about the effect of Bain's actions on workers. Seems to me you didn't consider Newt a moron back then...

[kenberg]

I guess in every campaign we all deplore such tactics. We do all remember Willie Horton, and GHWB saying something along the lines of "Gee, I just don't know anything about that ad. Just don't know where it came from. I certainly would never say that Governor Dukakis was responsible for a woman's rape and murder. I'll look into this ad, but golly gee I just don't know anything about it." And of course Goldwater wanted to bomb little girls as they picked daisies, Nixon was responsible for a missile gap that didn't exist, Adlai Stevenson had communist associations, and so on. The famous question "Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" applies often, and the answer from political operatives is clear by their actions.

[luke warm]

 PassedOut, on 2012-August-12, 07:15, said:

Newt Gingrich started that line of attack against Romney ...

did not

 kenberg, on 2012-August-12, 07:56, said:

I guess in every campaign we all deplore such tactics. We do all remember Willie Horton, and GHWB saying something along the lines of "Gee, I just don't know anything about that ad. Just don't know where it came from. I certainly would never say that Governor Dukakis was responsible for a woman's rape and murder. I'll look into this ad, but golly gee I just don't know anything about it." And of course Goldwater wanted to bomb little girls as they picked daisies, Nixon was responsible for a missile gap that didn't exist, Adlai Stevenson had communist associations, and so on. The famous question "Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" applies often, and the answer from political operatives is clear by their actions.

yeah, that's all true but i just don't recall a campaign such as obama's this time... whether it's a ryan look-a-like rolling granny (in her wheelchair, mind you) off a cliff or saying republicans actually *want* dirty air & water, and want kids with autism to have no health care, it's seems to be worse this year

and this latest one, implying (if not actually stating) that romney was responsible for ms. coptic's death, when ALL fact checkers have called it a lie, takes the cake... the trouble is, it works

[lalldonn]

 luke warm, on 2012-August-11, 17:31, said:

do you disagree that anyone who believes romney caused someone's death is a moron?

Do you disagree that calling anyone who disagrees with you a moron is unproductive political discourse?

[luke warm]

 lalldonn, on 2012-August-12, 11:44, said:

Do you disagree that calling anyone who disagrees with you a moron is unproductive political discourse?

no, i don't disagree with that

[kenberg]

 luke warm, on 2012-August-12, 09:45, said:

yeah, that's all true but i just don't recall a campaign such as obama's this time... whether it's a ryan look-a-like rolling granny (in her wheelchair, mind you) off a cliff or saying republicans actually *want* dirty air & water, and want kids with autism to have no health care, it's seems to be worse this year

and this latest one, implying (if not actually stating) that romney was responsible for ms. coptic's death, when ALL fact checkers have called it a lie, takes the cake... the trouble is, it works

Absolutely the trouble is thta it works. I have this theory ab\out the Bush/Clinton 1992 election. Bush and his team were rough enough on Dukakis in 88 but not so intense against Clinton in 92. I have always thought Busd decided something like "I have been the head of the CIA, I am in my fourht year as President, if the voters don't know me by now or don't like me, well, Barbara and I can always grow some roses and play with the grandchildren.". I can sort of imagine a guy saying that slinging crap as a candidate is one thing, but repeating the show as a sitting president is more than he is willing to do. Maybe Obama hasn't reached that stage of serenity, or maybe he just noticed that Bush lost.

Anyway they demean themselves, all of them, with this stuff.

But yes, it works.

[PassedOut]

 luke warm, on 2012-August-12, 09:45, said:

yeah, that's all true but i just don't recall a campaign such as obama's this time... whether it's a ryan look-a-like rolling granny (in her wheelchair, mind you) off a cliff or saying republicans actually *want* dirty air & water, and want kids with autism to have no health care, it's seems to be worse this year

and this latest one, implying (if not actually stating) that romney was responsible for ms. coptic's death, when ALL fact checkers have called it a lie, takes the cake... the trouble is, it works

Politics is not beanbag, and both sides are equally guilty. So long as voters take the bait, both sides will keep it up.

When Newt Gingrich started this line of attack against Romney, it was inevitable that the democrats would follow suit: Gingrich, 'super PAC' press Romney on Bain Capital record

Quote

Gingrich accused Romney of building the fortune that has underwritten his political career through a “flawed system” – better known as private equity – in which “a handful of rich people [can] manipulate the lives of thousands of other people and walk off with the money” by “looting a company and leaving behind broken families and broken neighborhoods.”

Gingrich said legitimate questions about Romney’s financial background have surfaced in a series of news media investigations, including recent accounts in the Wall Street Journal and Reuters.

“At some point, Gov. Romney is going to have to answer those questions. And I think it’s a legitimate question about exactly what happened: Where did the money go? Who got the money? What happened to the people involved? And to what extent is that his responsibility?” Gingrich told reporters in Manchester, N.H.

So now the democrats are demanding answers as Gingrich did. In case you've forgotten, here is the original infomercial run by the super-pac supporting Newt Gingrich: When Mitt Romney Came To Town — Full, complete version

[phil_20686]

 lalldonn, on 2012-August-12, 11:44, said:

Do you disagree that calling anyone who disagrees with you a moron is unproductive political discourse?

lol. tell it to paul krugman.

Also, sometimes when faced with the unutterable stupidity of some political representatives, there is really nothing else to do.

I have literally watched high ranking politicians arguing with each other on these interview shows, where they follow one false argument with a false assertion and a catchy jingo, and all the while the presenter nods sagely, as if great wisdom has been dispensed to the watching masses. It fills me with rage.

My favourites are the seemingly totally insignificant fights, that nevertheless have large consequences. Like the FAA taxes. During the budget fights, the FAA budget lapsed, leaving it totally unfunded. Fortunately somehow it managed to keep functioning, but one of the things that didn't get done, was collecting the tax that pays for it, which is on all flight tickets. So the air companies got a nice billion dollar windfall. But that isn't even the strange part, the reason its budget wasn't renewed, is that they cannot agree on a long term budget, so they keep passing one year budgets. Which is obviously annoying and more expensive. So the FAA is the aviation authority, without which there would be no flights in america. Its also pays for the air traffic controllers. How is it that your congress is so dysfunctional that it cannot pass a budget that pays for its air traffic controllers in a sensible way.

Also, we still mint pennies. You realise that it costs 3 cents to make a one cent coin. Is this the most irrational thing in the developed world. We pay literally hundreds of millions of pounds a year to mint new pennies, which cost more to make than their face value. Weird.

[luke warm]

 PassedOut, on 2012-August-12, 19:58, said:

Politics is not beanbag, and both sides are equally guilty.

i don't think this is true at all... what republican (or PAC's) campaign ad has called obama a felon, or claims that he is effectively responsible for someone's death? there's a difference between personal attacks and attacks on policies or stands

 phil_20686, on 2012-August-15, 08:04, said:

I have literally watched high ranking politicians arguing with each other on these interview shows, where they follow one false argument with a false assertion and a catchy jingo, and all the while the presenter nods sagely, as if great wisdom has been dispensed to the watching masses. It fills me with rage.

that happens a lot on message boards also ... conclusions in premises, etc

[hrothgar]

 phil_20686, on 2012-August-15, 08:04, said:

Also, we still mint pennies. You realise that it costs 3 cents to make a one cent coin. Is this the most irrational thing in the developed world. We pay literally hundreds of millions of pounds a year to mint new pennies, which cost more to make than their face value. Weird.

The government creates pennies to provide a common medium of trade.
It's not trying to sell pennies for a profit.

There are plenty of good reasons to consider getting rid of pennies. However, production cost never struck me as significant.

[hrothgar]

 luke warm, on 2012-August-15, 15:41, said:

i don't think this is true at all... what republican (or PAC's) campaign ad has called obama a felon, or claims that he is effectively responsible for someone's death? there's a difference between personal attacks and attacks on policies or stands

As I recall, the claim was that Romney was either a felon or a liar, so there is room to choose.

I've seen plenty of claims from Republicans stating that Obama is deliberately trying to destroy the American economy, accusing him of treason / being a Kenyan / being a Nazi, you name it. As to the "murder" claim, I haven't seen that one used again Obama yet, but who knows. Maybe he was also complict in the Vince Foster "murder".

Regardless, I am reminded of the following quote that Romney made during the Republican debates when Gingrich was pissing and moaning over Romney's negative adds:

Quote

politics isn't “beanbag” and that “there's no whining in politics”

http://www.buzzfeed....ing-in-politics

[lalldonn]

 hrothgar, on 2012-August-15, 16:15, said:

As to the "murder" claim, I haven't seen that one used again Obama yet, but who knows.

The accusations about 'death panels' seem at least as bad. It's not "he caused someone's death" but it's "he chooses who dies".

[phil_20686]

 hrothgar, on 2012-August-15, 15:56, said:

The government creates pennies to provide a common medium of trade.
It's not trying to sell pennies for a profit.

Its pretty hard to imagine that pennies facilitate trade. It also seems a bit weird to take a loss minting them when they are basically completely useless.

[hrothgar]

 phil_20686, on 2012-August-16, 13:04, said:

Its pretty hard to imagine that pennies facilitate trade. It also seems a bit weird to take a loss minting them when they are basically completely useless.

As I said before, I have no issues with arguments regarding the utility of a 1 cent piece as a medium of exchange.
(As a more extreme example, I don't think that the United States suffers because we don't have a 17 cent coin or a 13 dollar bill)

However, this is not the argument that you originally raised...

[billw55]

Pennies are silly obv. While we're at it, I favor dollar coins instead of bills. And the $10 bill is unnecessary, $5 and $20 are adequate. Some goes for dimes.

[Winstonm]

 blackshoe, on 2012-August-10, 22:21, said:

How does the Tet Offensive fit in there?

The Tet offensive was a PR victory for the North - and it heightened the shrillness of the push to get out of the war. IMO

[hrothgar]

 hrothgar, on 2012-August-09, 08:54, said:

VPs are often capable of delivering specific states. The choice of Johnson is considered a prototypical example.
There are definitely counter examples. (Hell, Gore wasn't able to win his home state in 2000)

The reason that I am so bullish on Portman is Romney's need to keep Ohio in play...

Well, the decision not to go with Portman makes a bit more sense...