[MickyB]

Partner opens 1S, you have 3S4H. You play 1S:3D as a three-card limit raise.

Do you -

a) Respond 1NT to keep the hearts in the game
b) Respond 3D expecting partner to introduce hearts on 5-4 when accepting
c) Just play in spades

[gnasher]

I just play in spades. The occasional gains from finding the 4-4 fit don't justify the information leakage.

[aguahombre]

One vote for a) here...if only because I don't have b) or c) and am thusly prejudiced.

Seems as if this might be the typical situation where the 4-4 does play better.

Do you really have both choices available? Seems like the 3D gadget is designed to offset a NF 1NT.

[awm]

I've found that the 4-4 heart fit is actually a substantial win when you have it (quite often an extra trick, could be the difference between game making and failing). However, I really don't like telling the opponents about opener's minor suit distribution by bidding 1NT, and there are some other issues with that sequence as well (for example, opener's jump shift leaves me unable to show my hand). My preference is to bid 3♦, and expect opener to introduce hearts if he has four. This tells opponents a little about opener's shape (whether he has four hearts) but that's much less information than opener gives over a forcing or semi-forcing 1NT.

[bluecalm]

I feel that bidding 3H to find 4-4 (or 5-4) hearts is big winner in this situation so b) for me.

[fromageGB]

For me it is 1NT and happy with it. The 4-4 heart fit, if it exists, is much preferred to a 5-3 spade fit. "Information leakage" from opener bidding a minor is not so important for me, because 2♣ is a forcing artificial bid. If opener has a very strong hand, bidding is facilitated by letting him bid 2♣, as cue bids are tricky if you start with 3♦. OK, he can cue with spades trumps, but to keep the hearts in the picture is impossible - he bids 3♥ and you bid 4♥ without knowing his strength.

Not playing a Gazzilli type 2♣ there is more going your 3 card limit raise, but there are problems, surely? If he bids 3♥ only when accepting game, then presumably he bids 3♠ if not. Now you have missed your better partial. 1NT keeps it in the picture, ie 1♠ 1NT 2♥ 3♥ pass.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

After a limit raise, is a new suit natural or cue-bid for you ?

After a constructive ( mixed raise ) , a new suit normally is a long suit game-try -- hence natural.
But after a limit raise, a new suit normally is a cue-bid .

[lalldonn]

I certainly wouldn't rule out hearts. What if those are a 5-5 fit? But 3♦ seems right so partner won't give info by bidding a minor, so b it is.

[MickyB]

I'm not convinced that b) gives away less info than a) overall. One way you give away info whenever opener has four hearts, the other way you give away info whenever responder has four hearts. Also 1S:3D, 3H is pretty useful as something else, eg shortage ask.

[EricK]

Talking of information leakage, but from the other perspective, 1NT makes it easier for the opponents to enter the auction. But I don't know if, on average, this information leakage helps you in the play of the hand more or less than it helps the opponents' defense.

[nigel_k]

I don't like the information leakage either. But if you can find a way for responder rather than opener to introduce the other major on these kind of auctions, at least you are not revealing the shape of the declaring hand.

[aguahombre]

nigel_k, on 2012-October-27, 20:51, said:

I don't like the information leakage either. But if you can find a way for responder rather than opener to introduce the other major on these kind of auctions, at least you are not revealing the shape of the declaring hand.

You might want to rethink that. Declaring hand will either be opener, and the fact that he has 4-hearts is not leakage but rather obvious when dummy only has four....OR responder will be Declarer and will have leaked the 3-card spade support along with 4 hearts. We need to look for some other reason to choose a particular action and style here, other than "leakage".

[fromageGB]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-October-27, 17:51, said:

After a limit raise, is a new suit natural or cue-bid for you ?

After a constructive ( mixed raise ) , a new suit normally is a long suit game-try -- hence natural.
But after a limit raise, a new suit normally is a cue-bid .

I don't play this 3 card game invitation, but if I did I would take 3♥ to be natural. (edit) Cue bids are normally over the level of 3M, and depending on your style preceded by a bid or a bypass of serious/non-serious 3NT (which of course is irrelevant in this context). I think finding a 4-4 heart fit is important. Of course, if like me you prefer 1NT if responder has 4 hearts, then there is no reason why 3♥ cannot be an advance cue with a probable lack of club control.

[MickyB]

MickyB, on 2012-October-27, 18:19, said:

I'm not convinced that b) gives away less info than a) overall. One way you give away info whenever opener has four hearts, the other way you give away info whenever responder has four hearts. Also 1S:3D, 3H is pretty useful as something else, eg shortage ask.

Disagree [with myself]. 1M:3D, 4M *denying* four hearts still constitutes "giving away info about declarer's hand", which is obviously more significant than giving away info about dummy's hand.

I think I'm going to proceed by responding 1NT on (34)33, keeping NT and oM in the picture, and give up on other strains when I am 33(43) or other 4-3 majors.

[fromageGB]

MickyB, on 2012-October-27, 18:19, said:

Also 1S:3D, 3H is pretty useful as something else, eg shortage ask.

Not convinced about this, as responder has only 3 card support, where shortages are not so useful. If he had a limit raise not counting the shortage, then add the shortage and it becomes a game hand and would be bid a different way. If it was just a simple raise not counting the shortage and adding the shortage turned it into an invitation, then slam seems to be a big hope.

If there is a shortage, 3415 or 3451 is twice as likely as 3145, so having hearts as natural is even more important.

[fromageGB]

MickyB, on 2012-October-27, 18:19, said:

MickyB, on 2012-October-28, 03:44, said:

Disagree [with myself]...
I think I'm going to proceed by responding 1NT

If any of my opponents took 9 hours 25 minutes to make the first response, I might call the director!

[aguahombre]

I remember a thread about being up against a team of much better reputation which the oddsmakers deem a big favorite. The question was how to create some variance to improve our chances.

Perhaps one variance would be to use our methods to find what we believe to be the best strain and level without worrying about leakage ---and hope our esteemed foes choose not to do that, to their detriment.

[nigel_k]

nigel_k, on 2012-October-27, 20:51, said:

I don't like the information leakage either. But if you can find a way for responder rather than opener to introduce the other major on these kind of auctions, at least you are not revealing the shape of the declaring hand.

aguahombre, on 2012-October-27, 21:16, said:

You might want to rethink that. Declaring hand will either be opener, and the fact that he has 4-hearts is not leakage but rather obvious when dummy only has four....OR responder will be Declarer and will have leaked the 3-card spade support along with 4 hearts. We need to look for some other reason to choose a particular action and style here, other than "leakage".

Obviously you cannot play in a 4-4 heart fit and conceal that declarer has four trumps. Nor can you employ a mechanism to investigate a 4-4 fit without revealing that declarer has less than four when there are four in dummy.

I was talking about the situation where you investigate a 4-4 fit and go back to playing the first suit. For example, after 1♠-2♠-2NT(unspecified game try), you could have the agreement that 4♦ by responder accepts and shows four hearts. That way, when you play in spades, opener's heart length is unknown except that he probably has less than four.

[twoshy]

MickyB, on 2012-October-28, 03:44, said:

Disagree [with myself]. 1M:3D, 4M *denying* four hearts still constitutes "giving away info about declarer's hand", which is obviously more significant than giving away info about dummy's hand.

I think I'm going to proceed by responding 1NT on (34)33, keeping NT and oM in the picture, and give up on other strains when I am 33(43) or other 4-3 majors.

You might want to disagree with yourself again! 4♠ doesn't deny 4♥ as it could be 64. I also don't see why it couldn't be 54 with poor hearts and stacked minors, where the advantage of playing in spades is that you can discard your hearts (and if you are opposite short hearts, you'll be ruffing in the short hand).

[JLOGIC]

I am not sure what my internal algorithm is in my head but I do both...maybe show hearts 60 percent and bid 4s 40 percent. My spades def matter, like axxxx I would always try to get to hearts and kqjtx I prob never would. How much a heart lead would help prob plays into it. I have no set rule, I basically go on feel. Also 5431 prime I think I always show hearts as opposes to 5422. Not sure if its true but I think the 44 works better more often when I have a stiff. Sorry this wasn't much help lol, I used to 4s every time but I think it misses hearts too much. Like axxxx akxx qxx x it just feels really right to bid hearts.