[RunemPard]

I live in Sweden, and the clubs I play at would probably allow the use of the artificial methods I am about to mention. I am looking to create artificial GF bids for 1M-2m sequences. We will be using a F1NT w/ Bergen as well. My main questions would be regarding which events this would typically be legal to play in and if you feel it is a good idea to use when allowed. Will put the ideas I have in my head below for critique.

Thanks a lot!



1M-2m* = Multi GF (J2NT, some kind of balanced NT hands lacking trump (possibly single), natural (HCP range...not sure) (6+m), natural 5m+4x, or 3(4)+M w/ a void)

My idea is to split the bids among the 2/1s to allow for accurate descriptions of holdings and strengths. 1M-2N will be open to use for another type of bid.

What are your thoughts on playing something like this? Do you have any past experiences? How vulnerable would you consider this to preempts? I cannot imagine many hands where the opponents will preempt and we will have no clue which direction to go in.

[akhare]

♣

RunemPard, on 2012-August-15, 09:27, said:

I live in Sweden, and the clubs I play at would probably allow the use of the artificial methods I am about to mention. I am looking to create artificial GF bids for 1M-2m sequences. We will be using a F1NT w/ Bergen as well. My main questions would be regarding which events this would typically be legal to play in and if you feel it is a good idea to use when allowed. Will put the ideas I have in my head below for critique.

Playing a symmetric relay like scheme, you only need 2♣ GF bid. Note that 5440 shapes are just shown as 5431, but in our experience, it hasn't come up so far.

1M - 2♣ (artificial GF):

2♦: All 5332, hands with 5+ minor
...........2S: 4+ clubs, exactly. 2N relays, then 3♣+ = <Template-1 with 5+M, 4♣>
...........2N: 5+5+ with M+♣, 3♣ relays, then 3♦+ = <Template-2 with 5+M, 5+♣>
...........3C: 5332 shapes
3♦+ = <Template-2 with 5M, 5+♦>

2♥: 4+ OM. 2♠ relays
...........2N: 5+5+ with both major. 3♣ relays, then:

<Template-2>
.................3♦: High short
.................3♥: 6511/5611
.................3♠+ = 5521, etc.
</Template-2>

...........3♣+: Follow <Template-1>

2♠: 5+M, 4♦ exactly, 2N relays

<Template-1>
..................3♣: Short in OM. 3♦ relays, then 3♥+
..................3♦: 5M-2-4♦-2
..................3♥: 5M-3OM-4♦-1 ♣
..................3♠: 6M, 4♦, 2OM, 1 ♣
..................3N: 7M4♦-2-0 ♣
..................4C: 7411
</Template-1>

2N: 6+ major, no singleton or void
3♣: 6+ major, high short
3♦: 6+ major, mid short
3♥: 6M33-1♣
3♠: 7M(32)-1♣
3N: 7M33-0♣

Of course, you will need to figure our what to do after shape is resolved, like DCB, RKC, etc...

[kenrexford]

Having played something very similar to this for years, I believe this to be very playable. I do not see any need to use quantum mechanics (relays) to unwind this start, however. Natrual seems to work fine.

[SteveMoe]

Something I play with one partner in a Precision context:

1♠ = 4+ cards 8 - 12 HCP
1N = Natural, not forcing. 8-11 HCP

2♣ = All GF. Asks AK Controls (Beta). [Opening 1M PROMISES 3 controls so response scale is 3,4,5.....]

2M = 8-12 We roll 3 card limit raises into this bid, so Opener must act with game interest opposite a max.

2♦, 2♥OM, 3♣ = Constructive Freebids 8-12 HCP and 5+ Cards - NONFORCING
3♦ = Constructive 4-card raise (Bergen)
2N = 11-12 Balanced, Natural Nonforcing(usually 2-card fit).
3N = 13-15 Balanced, Natural Nonforcing (usually 2-card fit).
3M = Limit Raise 4+ Cards.
4M = 2-way raise - 13-14 HCP w/4 trumps balanced or preempt

Constructive Freebids cause us to use Negative/Positive doubles (all GF Responder hands go through double when they overcall).

[Vampyr]

Why are you playing forcing 1NT? What hands will you not be able to handle if playing ordinary 6-9 1NT response?

[inquiry]

You are interested in game forcing 2 of a minor response, but you might want to consider a possible non-forcing variant that I have a lot of fun with.

I use 2♣ by an unpassed hand as "reverse drury", or a balanced hand from 10 hcp up without three card support (1444 would fit this "balanced" issue), or true game force with five clubs. Partner responds as if it was Reverse Drury.....

Partner rebids 2♦ with extra values, two of his major with minimum hand (no extra length needed), 2♥ if he opened 1♠ does not show extra values, but may have extras, three of either minor shows shape 5-5 and "extras". 2NT over 2♣ shows six card major and a four card club fit. The problem with the 2NT rebid is it has wrong sided notrump contracts when the 2♣ bid is the 1444 shape (although you might try 6=1 spade fit or 4=4 club fit), but on other hands you end up in the major or clubs. Of course, 2♠ rebid after opening 1♥ is a true reverse.


The advantage of this method might not be something you are looking into, but I combine this with a semi-forcing 1NT. This takes all good balanced hands and all hands with major support out of the forcing 1NT (making it now easily semi=forcing). It allows you to issue direct raises with very weak hands and fit (since constructive or better raises go through 2!C). It makes balancing back in on auctions that end in 2M more dangerous, as the 2♣ bidder might have, for instance 10 or 11 points balanced and pass 2M on an auction like 1M=2C=2M=PASS and if they bid you collect a nice doubled penalty bonus. But responder might also have a weaker hand with real spade support, so if they don't balance you might steal a cheap one.

[SteveMoe]

Vampyr, on 2012-August-21, 09:52, said:

Why are you playing forcing 1NT? What hands will you not be able to handle if playing ordinary 6-9 1NT response?

Didn't see any reference to Forcing NT above. Don't be thrown by the 8-11 HCP range for the natural nonforcing 1NT I cited. In Precision with 11 HCP opening bids, this range is the equivalent to 7-10. 6-9 doesn't work in Precision because 10-11 is not enough for a 2N bid opposite an 11 HCP opening bid. 2N should be more like 12-13...
Regards,
Steve

[Vampyr]

SteveMoe, on 2012-August-22, 03:38, said:

Didn't see any reference to Forcing NT above.

I saw "We will be using a F1NT". I assumed that this meant a forcing 1NT response, but perhaps I was mistaken.

[dake50]

Look at Ultimate Club. Should give some ideas on what is
'not 2C-GF' when 2/1 is 2D,2H,2oM.
I have a pair in our club playing this as 2/1-GF,
but they mean only 2C is GF.
Depending on what is in other 2/1's,
may not have too much unwinding.

[SteveMoe]

Vampyr, on 2012-August-22, 04:08, said:

I saw "We will be using a F1NT". I assumed that this meant a forcing 1NT response, but perhaps I was mistaken.

You are right! I missed this completely...

[PrecisionL]

We are on our 8th version of a 1M - 2♣ = Artificial Game Force in a Precision Club system with canape rebids when opening 1 of a Major. Our scheme would need major modification to work with a 5-cd Major opening system. It takes a lot of time and testing to design a simple and usable scheme. Sabine Auken played such a scheme, but now that she is partnering Roy Welland, I do not know the details of their system.

Edit: I do have some details of her partnership with Daniela von Arnim.

[Free]

I'm used to play 1M-2♣ as GF relay (asking opener's shape and strength) and 2♦ as natural GF (usually 6+♦, unless you're planning to raise the M next turn). It's not full relays, but most shapes can be shown quite accurately (everything up to 5-5 or 6-4 is in the structure, but 7+ card suits aren't shown exactly). I'm very happy with the method and don't see any big improvements in that area possible. Not in the relay structure, not by adding more artificial relays,...

However, I'm not saying that this method is the best possible. Turning the whole thing upside down and letting responder show his shape and strength instead of opener may be better. You can start at 2♣ (1 step lower) but you haven't shown anything about shape yet and you also need some bids to raise opener's Major. I haven't thought this through, but at first glance I don't think it's better.

[dustinst22]

inquiry, on 2012-August-21, 23:27, said:

You are interested in game forcing 2 of a minor response, but you might want to consider a possible non-forcing variant that I have a lot of fun with.

I use 2♣ by an unpassed hand as "reverse drury", or a balanced hand from 10 hcp up without three card support (1444 would fit this "balanced" issue), or true game force with five clubs. Partner responds as if it was Reverse Drury.....

Partner rebids 2♦ with extra values, two of his major with minimum hand (no extra length needed), 2♥ if he opened 1♠ does not show extra values, but may have extras, three of either minor shows shape 5-5 and "extras". 2NT over 2♣ shows six card major and a four card club fit. The problem with the 2NT rebid is it has wrong sided notrump contracts when the 2♣ bid is the 1444 shape (although you might try 6=1 spade fit or 4=4 club fit), but on other hands you end up in the major or clubs. Of course, 2♠ rebid after opening 1♥ is a true reverse.


The advantage of this method might not be something you are looking into, but I combine this with a semi-forcing 1NT. This takes all good balanced hands and all hands with major support out of the forcing 1NT (making it now easily semi=forcing). It allows you to issue direct raises with very weak hands and fit (since constructive or better raises go through 2!C). It makes balancing back in on auctions that end in 2M more dangerous, as the 2♣ bidder might have, for instance 10 or 11 points balanced and pass 2M on an auction like 1M=2C=2M=PASS and if they bid you collect a nice doubled penalty bonus. But responder might also have a weaker hand with real spade support, so if they don't balance you might steal a cheap one.

I like this method, and have been considering using it. Is it allowable in ACBL general chart? You mentioned the 2C bid shows either a constructive, limit raise, or GF raise. What are the follow ups to show each type?